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A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam

A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam

Old May 18th 2009, 4:07 pm
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Default Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam

Originally Posted by hitchw View Post
from what i can see jgombos is anti fx brokers
If you must look at the world from the viewpoint of a fanboy, anti-this, pro-that, based on emotion without any kind thoughtful analysis, you need to at least correct your statement to say: anti-opaque FX brokers
Originally Posted by hitchw View Post
as he has never used them
How do you figure?
Originally Posted by hitchw View Post
and cant quite understand how it works.
I've pointed out quite clearly how it works. If you don't follow, then you're the one that lacks the understanding.
Originally Posted by hitchw View Post
i have an agreement with my broker about how many pips off market he quotes me...i know where the market is and then i know what rate i will get, i dont think it gets alot more transparent than that...
Precisely the problem. It could be more transparent, but it's not. What's not in your agreement is how much your broker's bank siphons for inbound and outbound wire transfers. This is how the scam works:

http://money.wikia.com/wiki/Legal_scam:_Wire_Siphoning

Last edited by jgombos; May 18th 2009 at 4:12 pm.
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Old May 19th 2009, 3:16 am
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Default Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam

Originally Posted by jgombos View Post
Most forex brokers will claim wire transfers are free, but they'll make an arrangement with their bank where the bank grabs money as it funds or leaves the forex account. Customers don't know they've been scammed until after the money appears in their brokerage account, short of what was sent from a SEPA bank to a SEPA bank. The European financial system seems to have no defense against this scam.

Has anyone confirmed by way of experience any forex brokers that are not running this type of scam?
I use these people:

www.currencyonline.com

They are part of the HiFX group (they have a banner on this site). They are run by the Bank of New Zealand and state their tranfer fees up-front which are quite reasonable.
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Old May 19th 2009, 8:58 am
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Default Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam

Originally Posted by jgombos View Post
If you must look at the world from the viewpoint of a fanboy, anti-this, pro-that, based on emotion without any kind thoughtful analysis, you need to at least correct your statement to say: anti-opaque FX brokers

How do you figure?

I've pointed out quite clearly how it works. If you don't follow, then you're the one that lacks the understanding.

Precisely the problem. It could be more transparent, but it's not. What's not in your agreement is how much your broker's bank siphons for inbound and outbound wire transfers. This is how the scam works:

http://money.wikia.com/wiki/Legal_scam:_Wire_Siphoning
i figured that much because you havent explained anything to me...you are suffering from tunnel vision...you are concentrating on charges that will be applied to regular payments etc...let me ask you this...if you have a business, do you earn profit? if you have, lets say, a shop, when a customer walks in to buy something do you stand there at the till and explain how much his purchase cost you, how much your electricity/rent etc costs and then your percentage of profit you take from the sale...if not, why not? if you truly believe things should be that transparent surely you would. yes brokers are there to provide a service, but ultimately to make money. and all that talk about banks siphoning money...when? lets say, I book a trade for 10000 at 1.13 when the interbank rate is 1.135. this will give me €11300 euros... that amount of euros cost my broker £9955.95 so they earn £44.05(minus running costs...) from that deal...then they deposit €11300 into my account...apart from in spain as my bank have started taking 3€ per incoming transfer but that is regardless of where it comes from...perhaps you have had a bad experience in the past but what you are spouting is absolute garbage in my humble opinion...
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Old May 19th 2009, 8:53 pm
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Default Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam

Originally Posted by hitchw View Post
i figured that much because you havent explained anything to me...
Of course I have - but unless you can be specific about what you're not understanding, you can't expect folks to help you with whatever concept you're struggling with.
Originally Posted by hitchw View Post
you are suffering from tunnel vision...
From this statement and other comments you've made in this thread, it's clear that you've made an attempt at getting breadth on the topic, but not depth. You're not focused. You need to be able to isolate different aspects of the market.
Originally Posted by hitchw View Post
you are concentrating on charges that will be applied to regular payments etc...let me ask you this...if you have a business, do you earn profit? if you have, lets say, a shop, when a customer walks in to buy something do you stand there at the till and explain how much his purchase cost you, how much your electricity/rent etc costs and then your percentage of profit you take from the sale...if not, why not? if you truly believe things should be that transparent surely you would.
Good example. Of course I would want transparency. Although I don't care what the owner pays to the supplier, because the price I pay is what matters to me. But I fully expect to know what my price is. If the store owner quotes me €20, and I agree to pay €20, I'll have good reason to protest if I discover some hidden charges after I've committed. Eg. Merchant tells a client to wire him €20, but then merchants bank (not the clients) siphons off €5, so the merchant then tells the client he only received €15, and must pay the rest before he will fulfill his end of the contract. Of course consumers demand transparency in the costs to the consumer.
Originally Posted by hitchw View Post
yes brokers are there to provide a service, but ultimately to make money.
Of course. But that's not to say that every method in which they make money is ethical. There are acceptable legitimate ways to make money, and there are unacceptable illegitimate ways. In case you're wondering, misquoting a client is an illegitimate method to make money.
Originally Posted by hitchw View Post
and all that talk about banks siphoning money...when? lets say, I book a trade for 10000 at 1.13 when the interbank rate is 1.135. this will give me €11300 euros... that amount of euros cost my broker £9955.95 so they earn £44.05(minus running costs...) from that deal...then they deposit €11300 into my account...
That segment of the transaction is not where the wire siphoning happens. No wonder you're confused. You need to go back and re-read how the wire siphoning scam works.
Originally Posted by hitchw View Post
apart from in spain as my bank have started taking 3€ per incoming transfer but that is regardless of where it comes from
If your bank takes a fee in Europe, that's a shame, because most banks servicing a retail client don't take any fee from their own client on an inbound wire. But at least you know what your own bank charges you, as you have a business relationship with them. Again, that's another red herring; you need to re-read how the scam works, because it's not the client-facing bank that takes an undisclosed fee from the consumer.
Originally Posted by hitchw View Post
...perhaps you have had a bad experience in the past
In fact I do have the experience to back up what I'm saying.
Originally Posted by hitchw View Post
but what you are spouting is absolute garbage in my humble opinion...
Yet you've failed to challenge anything specific. The gross detail I've gone into to expose the full nature of the issue gives you all you need to verify what I've said. It's all verifiable information. You've demonstrated lack of understanding, and you've only made broad claims that amount to "garbage spouting". Try challenging a single claim that I've made, and come up with something factual -- I challenge you.
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Old May 19th 2009, 8:55 pm
  #20  
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Default Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam

Originally Posted by johnh009 View Post
I use these people:

www.currencyonline.com

They are part of the HiFX group (they have a banner on this site). They are run by the Bank of New Zealand and state their tranfer fees up-front which are quite reasonable.
Thanks, I'll check it out.

I did look into HiFX, and discovered that each transaction involves negotiating an exchange rate over the phone. My speculation is that the brokerages cost in man hours for all the quotes can't be favorable for the bottom line. At first glance, currencyonline appears to be more automated.
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Old May 20th 2009, 2:04 pm
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Default Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam

For what its worth I use currencies direct.I have regular payments by d/d. I get a good rate generally and no charges. I get paid into a Spanish bank that doesnt charge for receiving
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Old May 20th 2009, 4:37 pm
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Default Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam

Originally Posted by jgombos View Post
Of course I have - but unless you can be specific about what you're not understanding, you can't expect folks to help you with whatever concept you're struggling with.

im not struggling with any concept at all...this is a very simple issue here, you say brokers banks siphon money...i have never suffered from this scheme, also, it wouldnt be the brokers bank, it would be your own receiving bank.

From this statement and other comments you've made in this thread, it's clear that you've made an attempt at getting breadth on the topic, but not depth. You're not focused. You need to be able to isolate different aspects of the market.

I invest in property on a global scale so am constantly sending funds through my broker, so believe me, i know the charges inside out even though i have never incurred any. focus...i wouldnt be in the position to do what i do if i wasnt focused.

Good example. Of course I would want transparency. Although I don't care what the owner pays to the supplier, because the price I pay is what matters to me. But I fully expect to know what my price is. If the store owner quotes me €20, and I agree to pay €20, I'll have good reason to protest if I discover some hidden charges after I've committed. Eg. Merchant tells a client to wire him €20, but then merchants bank (not the clients) siphons off €5, so the merchant then tells the client he only received €15, and must pay the rest before he will fulfill his end of the contract. Of course consumers demand transparency in the costs to the consumer.

not once have i ever sent x amount of funds and only y amount has cleared in their account, again, you will dispute this but perhaps i am lucky in that way

Of course. But that's not to say that every method in which they make money is ethical. There are acceptable legitimate ways to make money, and there are unacceptable illegitimate ways. In case you're wondering, misquoting a client is an illegitimate method to make money.

perhaps not, but fortunately this doesnt seem to be a regular occurence...misquoting is one thing, but if someone sends funds and their own bank charge a sending fee on the funds that is not the brokers fault...

That segment of the transaction is not where the wire siphoning happens. No wonder you're confused. You need to go back and re-read how the wire siphoning scam works.

If your bank takes a fee in Europe, that's a shame, because most banks servicing a retail client don't take any fee from their own client on an inbound wire. But at least you know what your own bank charges you, as you have a business relationship with them. Again, that's another red herring; you need to re-read how the scam works, because it's not the client-facing bank that takes an undisclosed fee from the consumer.

i dont see that there is a scam that has affected me in any way shape or form and by the look of the answers on this thread, you must be on your own there.

In fact I do have the experience to back up what I'm saying.

and a huge chip on the shoulder accompanied with the kind of defensive attitude that comes from a narcissitic "all i say is correct" attitude

Yet you've failed to challenge anything specific. The gross detail I've gone into to expose the full nature of the issue gives you all you need to verify what I've said. It's all verifiable information. You've demonstrated lack of understanding, and you've only made broad claims that amount to "garbage spouting". Try challenging a single claim that I've made, and come up with something factual -- I challenge you.
in response to your challenge...regardless of the knowledge you possess, I will reiterate that this has never been of consequence to me so i stand by what i say, maybe you are not talking utter nonsense, but your knowledge is limited to possible bad situations and experiences that you yourself have suffered.
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Old May 21st 2009, 4:00 am
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Default Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam

Most FX companies make very little on ROPS, they don't provide the service for that reason. The other thing is landing charges, that is purely down to your bank, not the fx broker. We can't control what the receiving bank may charge you. The only person that can do that is you. If you talk to them most of the time they will drop or reduce it. As a whole, some not all FX brokers do provide a very good and fair service.
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Old May 21st 2009, 6:28 am
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Default Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam

Originally Posted by hitchw View Post
in response to your challenge...regardless of the knowledge you possess, I will reiterate that this has never been of consequence to me so i stand by what i say,
Simply saying that you stand by what you say is worthless. You posted 3 red herrings, and you were called on it. Simply "standing by" your red herring fallacy without bringing anything of substance is nothing more than a time waster.
Originally Posted by hitchw View Post
maybe you are not talking utter nonsense,
Of course not. I've demonstrated that - and you failed to bring anything meaningful to the thread.
Originally Posted by hitchw View Post
but your knowledge is limited to possible bad situations and experiences that you yourself have suffered.
Bullshit. Why would you think someones knowledge is limited to their marketplace experiences? I've studied the policies and terms of over ~50 FX brokers in detail.
Originally Posted by PhilBen View Post
Most FX companies make very little on ROPS, they don't provide the service for that reason. The other thing is landing charges, that is purely down to your bank, not the fx broker. We can't control what the receiving bank may charge you. The only person that can do that is you.
You've completely misunderstood how wire siphoning works. The clients bank is obviously not used for the wire siphoning scam, because the client has a direct relationship with the bank that holds their assets.
Originally Posted by PhilBen View Post
If you talk to them most of the time they will drop or reduce it.
In most of western Europe, the client's bank charges zero for SEPA wires, and there's nothing to reduce. The bank the client doesn't control is the broker's bank. Only the broker has a contract with the broker's bank. The broker's bank has no reason to talk to the broker's client. And indeed, this is why it's the broker's bank that does the siphoning.
Originally Posted by PhilBen View Post
As a whole, some not all FX brokers do provide a very good and fair service.
Obviously you can't say that with a straight face. The wire siphoning scam alone disqualifies a large majority of FX brokers in terms of fairness, and that's before you even start to look at scams that get them blacklisted.
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Old May 21st 2009, 7:49 am
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Default Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam

without posting another "red herring" all i can say to humoru you is you are right, everyone else is wrong. this conversation is going nowhere if you cant simply admit that maybe your extensive research is not relevant to every broker in existence...you seem to be the only one on this thread that believes in this siphoning scheme so on that note all the best
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Old May 21st 2009, 12:31 pm
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Default Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam

Aren't brokers policed by any kind of of organisation?
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Old May 21st 2009, 2:40 pm
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Default Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam

Originally Posted by Mitzyboy View Post
Aren't brokers policed by any kind of of organisation?
not neccessarily for the time being...they are classified as money service providers and as they are not speculative companies they are only governed by hm customs and excise, according to my broker, that is changing and all companies should be fsa regulated in the near future...
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Old May 22nd 2009, 1:42 am
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Default Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam

Originally Posted by jgombos View Post
Most forex brokers will claim wire transfers are free, but they'll make an arrangement with their bank where the bank grabs money as it funds or leaves the forex account. Customers don't know they've been scammed until after the money appears in their brokerage account, short of what was sent from a SEPA bank to a SEPA bank. The European financial system seems to have no defense against this scam.

Has anyone confirmed by way of experience any forex brokers that are not running this type of scam?
Yea.. apparently, you can't reverse the TT. It is a one-way traffic to the scammer bank account.
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Old May 22nd 2009, 1:58 am
  #29  
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Default Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam

Originally Posted by Mitzyboy View Post
Aren't brokers policed by any kind of of organisation?
Yes they are HM Revenue & Customs
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Old May 22nd 2009, 3:04 pm
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Default Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam

Originally Posted by PhilBen View Post
Yes they are HM Revenue & Customs
Yes .... everyone is policed by them!!!

I meant like the FSA
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