PurpleOkapi

Hi,

I've been reading so much info my head is starting to spin. :-) I'd love some help just thinking through some of the decisions we need to make, and if you have suggestions on where I should be doing more research that'd be great!

I'm a UK/US citizen, my husband is US. Our three kids have both passports. We are planning to move back to the UK for at least a few years. Since we won't satisfy the financial requirements, we're going to move to Ireland first and do the Surinder Singh thing. I have family both north and south of the border, so moving to near the border would be fine for quite a while -- we're not necessarily going to rush through the Irish part of the SS route, we could be there a year or more (most leases are a year and it would let the kids do one full school year) -- but our ultimate goal is still probably the UK.

The biggest question for us at the moment concerns my husband's work. He works from home as a computer programmer for a small US company and they'll keep employing him even if we move. They're not the most stable company ever, but he's worked for them for nearly 10 years. It sounds great and flexible and like it should make things easy -- no immediate / desperate search for employment over there -- but we have no idea how to best make it work.

Can he just continue to work as an employee and have wages paid into US or Irish bank account? Which would be better? Should he set up his own company in US or Ireland (or, heck, Isle of Man, ;-) ) and contract his services with his current employer? How does the tax and social security stuff all work out? If we set things up in Ireland how hard will it be to then move to the UK?

Other questions:

For my husband to get a residence card in Ireland, I have to be either working, self-employed, studying, or "residing with sufficient resources". Since we live on only his income here, and could there too, does that count as residing with sufficient resources? And if it does, would that count as exercising EU Treaty rights for the Surinder Singh route into the UK? Or would I have to work as well to satisfy that? Which leads to.... if he set up his own company, could he employ me to satisfy the working requirements? We have a couple of ideas of how I could help part-time, I did work in tech before kids.

As I said, we don't need to rush through our time in Ireland as quickly as we can qualify. I'm wondering if we really seem to establish a life there, have the kids in schools, join local clubs etc., would I still have to be working for some months before we ultimately want to move to the UK?

Also, once we do move to the UK and have a Family Permit and all that, can we leave the UK for extended trips (up to 6 months maybe) to other EU countries and get back in easily or would we be back to me working/exercising EU treaty rights and SS to get back in?


Thanks for any and all help you can offer!

JAJ

Your question about what's needed to get a residence card in Ireland under EEA regulations is unlikely to be answered on a forum like this. Recommend to research at http://www.inis.gov.ie or failing that, you need an Irish immigration lawyer.

Are you an Irish citizen yourself, or entitled to register as an Irish citizen? If yes, then you could sponsor for residence under Ireland's domestic laws and also, your husband would be eligible for Irish citizenship after 3 years residence in Ireland, instead of the usual 5. If he becomes an Irish citizen, he doesn't need to worry about Surinder Singh, etc.

Employee situations rarely work well across borders. It would probably be better for your husband to work as an independent contractor. Setting up a company would complicate both his Irish and U.S. taxes and should only be considered with competent professional advice first.

Presumably you're aware that as U.S. citizens you will have to continue to file for U.S. federal tax even when living in Ireland or the U.K.

PurpleOkapi

JAJ, thanks for your reply. Yep, aware that we will have to file US tax returns, but as far as I understand, we won't be liable for SS contributions, and taxes paid to the country of residence are taken into account when calculating anything owed to the IRS.

As for the employment issues, it's so frustrating! Technology makes it so easy for my husband to work from anywhere with an internet connection. Surely there are other people who do this too?

I suppose I could register as an Irish citizen (born in NI) but I'm not sure how that helps. (I just got my US citizenship just over a week ago - I'm not ready to think about collecting a third one! ;-) ) It seems remarkably straightforward to move to Ireland under EU treaty rights and bring my husband with me. I did a lot of reading at the INIS website last night, and that's where I found on form EU1 that "residing with sufficient resources" is an option for the EU citizen to bring in a family member. All the discussion I've seen about Surinder Singh involves the EU citizen working in meaningful employment, and I guess I'm just wondering if "residing with sufficient resources" satisfies Ireland with regard to treaty rights, would it satisfy the UK that I was exercising my treaty rights too?

This move may be for 3-4 years total, and while we're happy enough to stay in Ireland for a while, I'd rather not be there for the 3 years it would take to get him citizenship.

JAJ

There is a social security agreement, so he would have to pay social insurance in Ireland but it could be credited to his U.S. record.
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/intern...criptions.html

Most of them work as contractors.
For example, if he stays as a company employee, they will need to continue deducting Social Security (and tax) from his wages, and any U.S. healthcare he may pay for might not be usable in Ireland. Usually it would make much more sense to restructure his agreement into that of an independent contractor. Then he would get a 1099 instead of a W-2. However, as a contractor he doesn't get vacation, pension, healthcare etc, so his hourly rate would need to reflect that.


Looks like you are an Irish citizen already, based on birth in Northern Ireland, although the Irish government says it considers your citizenship dormant unless you actually do something to activate it. Such as apply for an Irish passport.

Your children are Irish citizens by descent, on the same basis.

Immigration lawyer questions, sorry. No public forum can answer these and if you are planning a move to the U.K. later on then it's impossible to say what the Surinder Singh route will look like a few years down the line.

Would the Home Office decide that since you were born in NI, residence in Ireland does not count for Surinder Singh purpose? That's also an immigration lawyer question.

Are you telling us you would plan to move your children a second time, before ultimately returning to the U.S.? Are you sure that makes sense? From the outside, it would seem a lot more sensible to spend the time in Ireland for your husband to get Irish citizenship and then re-consider your options at that point.

PurpleOkapi

Yes, I found that last night and read through the agreement.

That's helpful, thanks. I think we'd been overthinking this and sort of missed that intermediate step of just being a contractor. He doesn't really get or count official vacation anyway (they're very flexible), no pension, and we wouldn't need the healthcare in the US, so that might work well.

True, and I was aware of that, but I have never considered myself Irish.

Oh, hmm, good point. Hadn't thought about whether Ireland wouldn't count for me as SS since I was born in NI. How does one go about finding a good immigration lawyer who specializes in ... quirks ... like this?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. From the outside, you can't be aware of all the various factors in our situation. For a variety of reasons we would not plan to make Ireland a longterm home. Partly, education -- we're not Catholic and while there are alternatives, space is limited. We have homeschooled at times but would want the social/networking/sanity-for-mom aspect of school initially. Partly, for my kids and my husband to get to know my country and culture, which is British, not Irish. My sister in Ireland would leave if her husband found a job elsewhere. My parents are in NI and I'd like to be closer to them. We hope to travel some too, exploring Europe and maybe spending months elsewhere if working remotely and returning to the UK aren't problems.

Originally, the idea came about because of something I saw online years ago, about my kids being British by descent and not being able to pass it on to their kids. I saw something on an official UK site that said if they spent 3 years in the UK before age 18, they would lose the "by descent" part. I haven't been able to find anything saying that in the last couple years, and maybe it has changed, but that was what planted the seed of the idea. If that were true, we would definitely want to spend 3 years in the UK. At the time, it would've been 3 years for my husband to acquire citizenship too, and I know that is now 5 years.

Thanks for your responses, I do appreciate the conversation. :-)

chaoclive

I would definitely not recommend exercising your right to Irish citizenship at this stage. This would definitely mess up your chances of doing SS through Ireland! [You can't 'exercise treaty rights' in a country of which you hold citizenship].

Consider carefully!

holly_1948

Agreed. Exercising Irish citizenship really only makes sense if you plan to make that easy move to Ireland (permanently or semi-permanently) instead of that difficult move to the UK.

JAJ

Just ensure there is a legal agreement between him and the U.S. company covering his services as a contractor.

Perhaps contact the Law Society of Northern Ireland?
http://www.lawsoc-ni.org/

Immigration law is the same throughout the U.K. but solicitors in Northern Ireland may be more experienced in the cross-border aspects of Surinder Singh. You could also get advice on the domestic immigration laws this way, before assuming you don't qualify for spouse migration you should confirm this.

For Irish immigration solicitors, contact the Law Society of Ireland:
http://www.lawsociety.ie/

However, before choosing a solicitor (in either jurisdiction), ask some questions about how much experience he or she has. Also, whether accreditation in the area of immigration law requires any post-qualification training or examination.


I'd recommend you think first about where your long term home should be. Also consider your children, what identity they will adopt and whether they will be comfortable having some kind of dual or triple identity. It works for some, not for others. If you do choose to settle in Ireland, it would be strongly recommended to integrate with the culture there and not try to hang onto a British identity too much. And also accept that if your children go through the Irish schooling system, they could end up with an identity that is more Irish than British.

Which in part explains your reluctance to settle long term in Ireland. However, if you stay a year, that's quite a significant time period, which will impact you and your children regardless. The fundamental problem is that you want to settle in the U.K. but it appears the current United Kingdom immigration laws don't allow it (although this is something you should confirm for sure). So your choice is to settle for a period of time in another country that will have you, but that then requires some adaptation and integration on your part. Or you remain in the United States and use the funds that you would have spent on moving to fund more extensive vacations in the United Kingdom.


Your children are British by descent and British citizenship, under current law, won't automatically pass to the next generation. Is that really a problem?

If your children live in the U.K. or its territories for a continuous 3 year period, they can register the next generation as British citizens. The 3 year residence can be anytime before the following generation is born. And there is an age limit of 18, except it applies to the child being registered as British, not the British by descent parent.

If this doesn't work, and your children were to move to the U.K. with their (American) children, your grandchildren, the grandchildren could be registered as British citizens after 3 years residence, again with an age limit of 18.

See the Home Office information on acquiring British citizenship under either section 3(2) or 3(5) of the British Nationality Act.
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/br...ritishcitizen/

Irish law is different. Your children, as Irish citizens by descent, can register their future children as Irish citizens by application (Foreign Birth Registration) without them needing to have met a residence requirement. At least under current laws. As you are probably aware, Irish citizens can, again under current law, live freely in the United Kingdom and become naturalised British after meeting the normal residence requirement.


There's a de-facto 5 year residence requirement since you need to have permanent residence to apply for British citizenship by naturalisation, and for most spouses, this takes 5 years. However, those spouses who have permanent residence some other way, still only need 3 years (as always - under current laws). So hypothetically, if your husband acquired Irish citizenship and then you moved to Northern Ireland, or anywhere else in the U.K., he could still become naturalised British after 3 years.

PurpleOkapi

Will do.

Thank you.


I'm really not trying to be rude, but why would you assume that we *haven't* thought about where our longterm home will be or considered our children? This is something we've thought about and talked about for more than two years. We have considered a lot of options, including some of the things you've suggested. We have chosen to pursue the course I described: move to Ireland and take the Surinder Singh route to the UK, where we are planning to spend approx 3 years, but with some flexibility: it could be less if we're all miserable, it could be forever if we all love it. The only difference in our situation than most others doing SS is that during the time I am exercising my treaty rights in Ireland we will be close to family anyway, so we don't feel the hurry to do the minimum time to meet requirements: we can honor a 1 year lease, we can let our kids do a full school year instead of switching schools mid-year. That doesn't mean I want to stay in Ireland and adopt an Irish identity.

I'm pretty sure I have confirmed for sure that we can't move directly to the UK. I'm not going to get a job anywhere near the required amount, and meeting the savings requirement is unlikely. So yes, you're right about our choice, and we've chosen. Vacations in the UK are not enough.


I suppose not. I'd just like it to be passed on. It's important to me.

OK, so I suppose that means that what I read so long ago is still true. That's useful.

Um, hm, yes. I know this, but don't care much.

Ah, now that's interesting. Not the Irish citizenship bit (I think by now you know that's not what we're after ), but if he has permanent residence it's 3 years? Does the Family Permit equal permanent residence? If we did SS through Ireland, would it be 3 years from arrival in the UK until he could apply for citizenship?

Again, thanks for your help.

One other question I had originally -- is the Family Permit a permanent right to reside? If we got through all the rest of it and were living in the UK, what would happen if we wanted to spend 6 months in France or 3 months in Lanzarote? Would we be subject to the same scrutiny upon our return to the UK? Would I need to have worked during the time abroad for him to be able to return? Or once he's got the FP can he come and go without worrying? (I know significant time outside the country would affect naturalization if we got to that point but that's not my question.)

JAJ

No.

Under the EEA regulations, EEA/Swiss citizens acquire permanent residence after 5 years in the U.K. It's the same in any member state under the EEA rules - 5 years for permanent residence.


Excessive time outside the U.K. may break the continuity of residence required to get Permanent Residence under the EEA regulations. There's a lot of information on the Home Office website, alternatively you could consult a U.K. immigration solicitor. Realistically - if he wants to move around the EEA states, it makes sense to get the passport of one of them (British or wherever), moving from country to country short term just means he won't be eligible for permanent residence or citizenship anywhere.

By the way, your husband can visit other Schengen Area countries (France, etc) with his U.S. passport but would normally be limited to 90 days. Also, it would be recommended not to travel anywhere outside the U.K./Ireland without having the appropriate EEA permit to re-enter the United Kingdom, or Ireland, as applicable.



Something else you should know about, for the longer term, is your children (if boys) will have to register with Selective Service at age 18. http://www.sss.gov
Even if they are living in the U.K. or Ireland.

PurpleOkapi

OK, thank you.

We don't mean move around from one place to another repeatedly, but possibly one 3-6 month trip during our 3-ish years. If we successfully do the SS thing and get a Family Permit, is that the "appropriate EEA permit" to re-enter the UK? And yes, we know he can visit other countries with his US passport.

Thank you, I am aware of that.

Pollyana

Hi, following your posts as its an interestung topic at present and just wanted to say that as a new poster you may not realise, JAJ. is one of the best around on this topic, he really does know his stuff. However he does post purely factually, so doesn't really go into the personal side of things as much as some of us do - hence he won't waste time wondering about family/feelings stuff, he keeps it to the bare facts - which is often a good thing, allows you to think about the situation rationally and objectively

good luck with whatever route you take!

Moses2013

Thank Google

Jerseygirl

Catherine...I've moved your posts into a new thread in the Rep. Of Ireland forum.


http://britishexpats.com/forum/repub.../#post11382745