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Old Mar 15th 2012, 4:08 pm   #1
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Default UK National vs Non-UK Resident

I've got to fill in a form for First Direct and this question has me stumped.

Am I a "UK National that left the UK permanently" OR am I "a non-UK Resident that resides overseas permanently".

Background:

Born Canadian with Canadian passport that contained a "Right of Abode" (due to parentage) and lived/worked in the UK from 1980-2004. Returned to Canada in 2004.

Can anyone help me deciper this?

Thanks,
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Old Mar 15th 2012, 4:45 pm   #2
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Default Re: UK National vs Non-UK Resident

Do you have UK citizenship?
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Old Mar 15th 2012, 4:48 pm   #3
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Default Re: UK National vs Non-UK Resident

Well, as far as I can make out I always defaulted to UK citizenship as I was always told off if I didn't go through the UK passport line at customs because I had the "Right of Abode" in my Canadian passport and, of course, I was always entitled to vote.

No-one ever questioned my right to work or owning a business. I paid taxes like everyone else......nothing was ever questioned in the near 25 years I was there.
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Old Mar 15th 2012, 5:12 pm   #4
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Default Re: UK National vs Non-UK Resident

OK - but you're either a UK citizen or you're not. You can have the "right of abode" without being a UK citizen. If on your form "UK National" actually means "UK citizen", then you can't select that option if you're not a UK citizen. You should probably check with First Direct to see what they are actually asking. Although you might get someone who doesn't have any idea how you should answer!
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Old Mar 15th 2012, 6:21 pm   #5
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Default Re: UK National vs Non-UK Resident

I've done a little bit more digging but goodness knows if what I read is right.......however, my understanding is I was a "naturalized UK citizen" according to the rules in place when I went to the UK in 1980, found a job, bought a home and obtained a NI number. Although the rules have changed over the years I would still be considered a "naturalized UK citizen" even under the latest rules.

So assuming "UK citizen" and "UK national" mean the same thing I'm defaulting to being a non-resident UK national. Personally, for the purposes of the bank, I don't think it makes a difference, but someone did a lousy job of creating the form in the first place. If I were to answer "Yes" to the other 2 questions on the form then the answer to this would be important. But as my answer is "no" to the other 2 questions it shouldn't matter how I answer this question!!!!!
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Old Mar 15th 2012, 11:29 pm   #6
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Default Re: UK National vs Non-UK Resident

Beware!!!

I had that question come up a few years ago when my father, who was living in France passed away.

The reason we were being asked is if he had been a resident in France the whole will had to be read in accordance with French law, however if he was not considered a French resident then UK law prevailed...

It made a huge difference to his beneficiaries so be careful how you answer than...
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Old Mar 17th 2012, 1:16 am   #7
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Default Re: UK National vs Non-UK Resident

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDNReturner View Post
I've done a little bit more digging but goodness knows if what I read is right.......however, my understanding is I was a "naturalized UK citizen" according to the rules in place when I went to the UK in 1980, found a job, bought a home and obtained a NI number. Although the rules have changed over the years I would still be considered a "naturalized UK citizen" even under the latest rules.
You are a naturalised British citizen if you, as a non-citizen, applied to the Home Office for a Certificate of naturalisation (or registration) as a British citizen.

If you were born before 1983, you may be a British citizen (by descent) if your father was born in Britain and your parents were married.

The fact you have Right of Abode does not prove you are a British citizen. Canadian citizens born before 1983 with a British born mother have generally got Right of Abode without being British citizens.

Impossible to make further meaningful comment without more information.
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Old Mar 17th 2012, 1:47 pm   #8
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Default Re: UK National vs Non-UK Resident

Thanks JAJ,

Yes, both parents were born in the UK and they were married in the UK before immigrating into Canada. I was 24 went I arrived in the UK on February 2, 1980 (though I would never be able to prove that). I never "registered" or "applied" for citizenship and until now never even knew you should do that.

I was aware of the new act when it came out but it didn't seem to affect me so I just carried on as normal. I never bothered to apply for a UK passport as my parents were divorced and the hassle of proving my parentage all over again would have been too painful for them.

So on that basis I'm assuming that before the UK Immigration Act 1981 you were naturalized without having to apply. However, the 1981 act that came into effect January 1, 1983 (I think) seems to say you must have been resident for three years before applying. So I'm a little unsure how I fall into all of that. On January 1, 1983 I would have been in the UK 3 years minus one month and one day and obviously I never "registered".

Many thanks,

Cathie
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Old Mar 17th 2012, 3:13 pm   #9
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Default Re: UK National vs Non-UK Resident

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDNReturner View Post
Thanks JAJ,

Yes, both parents were born in the UK and they were married in the UK before immigrating into Canada. I was 24 went I arrived in the UK on February 2, 1980 (though I would never be able to prove that). I never "registered" or "applied" for citizenship and until now never even knew you should do that.

I was aware of the new act when it came out but it didn't seem to affect me so I just carried on as normal. I never bothered to apply for a UK passport as my parents were divorced and the hassle of proving my parentage all over again would have been too painful for them.

So on that basis I'm assuming that before the UK Immigration Act 1981 you were naturalized without having to apply. However, the 1981 act that came into effect January 1, 1983 (I think) seems to say you must have been resident for three years before applying. So I'm a little unsure how I fall into all of that. On January 1, 1983 I would have been in the UK 3 years minus one month and one day and obviously I never "registered".
Not sure where you get the idea that you can be "naturalised" without application. It's never been that way, at least not since 1949.

However now you tell us your father was born in Britain and your parents were married => you automatically acquired CUKC by descent when you were born. This became British citizenship by descent in 1983.

You can, it appears, apply for a British passport anytime, if you can produce your father's birth certificate and marriage certificate. For now, it is fairly easy to get hold of UK birth and marriage certificates (unlike in Canada) so I would suggest you simply get hold of the documentation and apply for a British passport.


Do you have children of your own (born in Canada)? They are not British citizens automatically (because you are a citizen by descent) however since you lived in the United Kingdom for some time you might be able to register them as British citizens provided application is made before age 18.
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Old Mar 17th 2012, 3:21 pm   #10
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Default Re: UK National vs Non-UK Resident

OK, that was the bit I was unsure of......whether prior to 1981 you had to apply......I didn't therefore I'm not a UK National.

I don't actually want a UK passport, the Canadian one has always served me well, except for the nuisance that it has to be renewed every 5 years (although even that is finally easier).

I have no children, so no issues there.

Thanks for your help.

Cathie
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Old Mar 17th 2012, 3:27 pm   #11
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Default Re: UK National vs Non-UK Resident

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDNReturner View Post
OK, that was the bit I was unsure of......whether prior to 1981 you had to apply......I didn't therefore I'm not a UK National.
Sigh.

Read the previous post again.


You have to apply for naturalisation but you don't have to apply for citizenship by descent that comes automatically at birth ...

You have no way to ever prove you are a British citizen unless you get the passport.
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Old Mar 17th 2012, 3:59 pm   #12
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Default Re: UK National vs Non-UK Resident

Sorry JAJ,

I'm just totally confused by the terms,

"UK National"
"UK Citizen"
"naturalized" (never even heard of this term until this week)

So I keep reading what you've said over and over again and from what I understand now is I'm a UK Citizen that can't prove it unless I have a UK passport.

But am I a UK National?
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Old Mar 17th 2012, 4:02 pm   #13
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Default Re: UK National vs Non-UK Resident

Did the penny just drop?????

"I am not a UK National because I don't hold a UK passport".

I think I got it!!!!!
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Old Mar 17th 2012, 4:23 pm   #14
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Default Re: UK National vs Non-UK Resident

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDNReturner View Post
Sorry JAJ,

I'm just totally confused by the terms,

"UK National"
"UK Citizen"
"naturalized" (never even heard of this term until this week)

Naturalisation = the process for a foreign person to acquire citizenship of a country.


Quote:
So I keep reading what you've said over and over again and from what I understand now is I'm a UK Citizen that can't prove it unless I have a UK passport.

But am I a UK National?

Any British citizen is a British national. However some British nationals (such as British Overseas citizens) are not British citizens.

Quote:
"I am not a UK National because I don't hold a UK passport".

Untrue. Many British citizens do not hold British passports.
(Same in Canada - not every Canadian citizen has a passport.)
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Old Apr 25th 2012, 12:05 pm   #15
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Default Re: UK National vs Non-UK Resident

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDNReturner View Post
Did the penny just drop?????

"I am not a UK National because I don't hold a UK passport".

I think I got it!!!!!
No - that's incorrect. To me the term "UK national" is the same as "UK citizen". You can be a UK citizen without having a UK passport. If you are a UK citizen (by descent or otherwise) then you are also a "UK national" IMO. Whether you have a UK passport or not is irrelevant to your citizenship status.

Sounds like you need to ask what they mean by these terms on the form.
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