Pulaski

Of course! My mistake.

But then our local court (NC) summonsed my wife for jury duty when she was pregnant, specifically FIVE months pregnant, and she requested to be excused. The judge denied her request to be excused, and instead granted a THREE month postponement of her jury duty!

My wife decided that she would sooner go to court eight months pregnant than have to juggle jury duty with an newborn, and when she showed up the clerk asked why she hadn't requested to be excused?

Pulaski

Well, according to Cecil Rhodes, I "won first prize in the lottery of life."

Does that count?

robtuck

Yes, but any plans to leave the USA would probably be forever, so I'd give that up should that day come around. Given where I live, maybe I can sign-up to the Confederacy and avoid it that way? No? Oh well.

Pulaski

It isn't that easy, IIRC after eight years of permanent residence it becomes much harder to extract Uncle Sam's claws from you. You might want to research that well in advance.

Engineer_abroad

I just want to be clear this is not about ideology it is about making sure me and my daughters mother are aware of all our and her options going forward. I do consider a understanding of all the issues and options the key to making an informed decision.
I do wonder if I would be challenged the same way if I was talking about what religion to bring my child up rather than citizenship but hey ho.

penguinsix

It's highly unlikely she will be called, especially if not resident, and even if she was called she would get an exemption being overseas (i.e. Canada). However, US citizens are required to serve if called and have no valid excuse. In addition, while local courts are generally drivers license based, the US federal court system use a different database system for finding jurors. Federal court juror rolls come from voter registrations, supplemented by drivers licenses and sometimes tax records, so it is possible a juror summons could be issued one day if she ends up on those databases. Some states also use a list of people on public assistance as a juror roll as well.

But as you noted, it's unlikely she will even end up on most of these databases. Like selective service registration and enter exit on a US passport, juror service requirements are just one of those things that a USC has to deal with on paper, but in actual practice it's not likely to be a problem.

fwiw over the last ten years, I was summoned twice while in Hong Kong, once for a state court and once for federal, but the notice was sent to my USA address so they likely didn't know. Once I told them I was overseas I stopped getting notices. Wonder if I should tell them I'm back?

TexanScot

I'm not aware of any "Birthright Religion" statutes anywhere in the world that dictate that a child is a member of a particular faith group the same way that they are a particular nationality, and most faith groups require some sort of positive initiation ceremony (either consciously or on behalf of the child) before you can join the club.

I'd also put it to you that religious faith is a far more active and participatory involvement in a child's life than a nationality is, so we're not really comparing apples to oranges.

Then again there's also parts of the world where they will literally put people to death for renouncing the dominant faith group...

Engineer_abroad

i was more referring to myself being accused of forcing ideological beliefs on my child.

In the modern world of populist often jingoistic politics (worldwide) I would argue nationality could be viewed very much in the same light as a religion, especially when the state often controls the education system.

TexanScot

Since you asked, I'll be honest and say that speaking personally - and this is only my personal view - I'm pretty uncomfortable with the idea of children being raised in any particular faith without having had the chance to freely and consciously make that choice.

It's not the hill I'd choose to die on mind, not when there's bigger fish to fry.

I appreciate that the view here in the US is likely to be somewhat different than it might be in the UK

Engineer_abroad

we are in agreement on that.

I was trying to point out the somewhat apparent hypocrisy.

TexanScot

Like I said, for me it turns on the participatory vs non-participatory nature of citizenship, but other folk may well have a different view.

HDWill

Some are born citizens, some achieve citizenship, and some have citizenship thrust upon them.

robtuck

I think there are three triggers for an exit tax and I am unlikely to hit any of them. If I do, I'd be happy to pay as I doubt money will be a worry :-)

Giantaxe

This is way too much of a generalization. The earned income exclusion is just that - on earned income.There are a myriad of situations where the US will tax income, even given the exclusion and foreign tax credits. Ask Boris Johnson who had the IRS come after him for gain on the sale of his residence in London (the UK does not tax gains on primary residences). And then there are the FATCA issues that cause foreign financial institutions not to want to deal with "US persons". Really, I would strongly recommend this person's child to renounce if they have no intention ever to live in the US.

theOAP

A big +1.

The child has the choice at age 18 to decide about renunciation, and Canada is one of the more favourable countries financially to live in as a US citizen, especially if the child was born in Canada. Even in Canada, be careful of any account for the child (education, trust, personal, etc.). Many in Canada have an 'unexplained lapse of memory' concerning USC when opening an account. Nonetheless, in 2018, 900,000 Canadian accounts were reported to the IRS as 'US Person' accounts.
https://www.internationalinvestment....ords-irs-fatca

Caution - Some may not comprehend the following rhetorical questions.
Anyone care to guess how many US accounts of Canadian citizens, resident in Canada, were reported to Canada by US banks? Or, how many US accounts of Brits, resident in the UK, were reported to HMRC by US banks? How many resident in the US have been denied an investment account wholly because of their Canadian or UK citizenship? What would be the reaction for a USC, resident in the US, if they were rejected when attempting to open a US pension due to UK dual citizenship, and yet weren't allowed to open one in the UK since they are not resident there?

In all fairness to some comments in this thread, it's difficult for those physically resident in the US to fully understand what discrimination feels like after being rejected for attempting to open a financial account due to one's (US) nationality, especially some pensions or investments. Exasperation upon realising potential tax obligations and financial discrimination, such as in the OP, is a natural reaction.

If the child would potentially desire to reside in the US, they are a willing American. If the child would not want to become physically resident in the US or felt no need for USC, they become an 'Accidental American'. There are probably equal numbers of both although we are seeing more and more of those born abroad either renouncing or 'going underground' regards their USC.
https://americanexpatfinance.com/new...sh-frustration