Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

OH has been headhunted and offered a job (pending H1b visa transfer).

The contract offered is an 'at-will' one, which states that he can be fired at any time for no reason with or without notice.

The job is based in California and the salary is ridiculously high with a fat golden hello handshake thingy of an amount that makes my eyes water as well as a significant amount of equity (perhaps to gloss over the at will thing?)

I feel a bit sick ... but researching around on the ole Internet tells me that this is pretty normal here in the US.

Is it? Anyone know?

Sherbert Dip

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

It is in Texas.

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

Yes - extremely normal. In theory it is supposed to be advantageous to both parties. Your husband can leave any time he likes without giving notice. Pants of course. Especially when you are on a visa!

I was employed at-will on H1b for three employers in a row - then managed to find a more stable solution.

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

"At will" employement is definitely the norm.

That being said, everything is negotiable, so your husband might want to consider trying to negotiate a guanteed severance package if his employment were to be terminated other than for cause within a certain period of time.

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

It's the norm in the US, every job I have ever had was at will employment. Only very specific things such as race are protected, so they can't fire your for those things but the list isn't very large.

Canada is a tad better, they can still fire you without much warning or reasoning, but they either have to give you x amount of weeks working notice, or pay you X amount of weeks severance. In BC anyhow, unless they have just cause then they owe you nothing.

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

One question: isn't he currently employed on an "at will" contract? :confused:

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

Nopes!

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

Are you sure? :unsure:

And if so, how is his contract worded? ...... By way of comparison, I am employed "at will", but although there are some fluffy words in my contract around notice and severance, it doesn't alter the fact I am employed "at will". :(

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

California is definitely an at will state, so it's totally normal. That said, when I joined my company and had to do my management training, the guy running the course told us that even though it's an at will state, if your going to fire someone, do it in the first 90 days, because after that it becomes a lot more difficult.

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

Yep. We're currently going through the process with one of our employees, it's been 9 months now, and I'm still working through the process with HR.

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

What are the alternatives?

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

Union contracts. Tenure (certain jobs in academia and schools). .....

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

And this is cap-exempt? You know they can't promise an H-1B in the lottery, no matter how much money they want to throw at it...?

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

H1b transfers are not counted in the cap.

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

At will employment is the norm in the United States. I believe there is one state where it is not the default, but you probably wouldn't want to live there, anyway. As previously stated, there are many exceptions and complications, and it would be to a person's benefit to negotiate a severance package in advance.

This is probably know, but be aware: for an employment-based immigration issue, the client of the US attorney is the company, not the employe. While the attorney may be very helpful and informative when the employee has questions, the attorney's allegiance is owed to the company. If there are any questions at all, an employee should consult (and be prepared to pay) an experienced attorney at a different law firm. You can find many who will do telephone or remote consultations and take payment via various methods for the services.

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

If it's a plum position...get a one year's salary severance clause put into the contract.

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

OP's other half is currently on a cap-exempt H-1B. There was quite some discussion about cap-exempt-to-capped in her old thread: H1b - Work Woes.

Looking over it again, sherbert seems well aware of this, so I guess I'm just asking what solution you've found?

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

Yes, he's going from cap exempt to capped so is going through the lottery. I shouldn't have used the word transfer as it's not a transfer proper.

Is it normal to negotiate contracts? He asked about relocation costs and they said that this is what the sign on bonus is for. I suppose if they would say the same about severance...

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

Yes, it is normal.

How successful you will be depends on how badly the employer wants you (or, in this case, your husband) and how much the employer really thinks that you are worth (as opposed to what they are currently offering).

If you don't ask then you won't get anything.

You have to decide what risks you are prepared to take based on the compensation being offered. If you feel that the risks currently outweigh the benefits and that is a deal breaker for you then you need to make that clear to the prospective employer.

If you think that the current deal is basically OK but you would like more of a safety net then you can still negotiate - just not quite so aggressively.

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

Yes. My husband had a 1-year notice period.

Presumably one has to offset the golden hello and high salary. And anecdotally it doesn't appear to be that simple to sack someone.

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

Yes OH's current contract in academia - no 'at will' agreement was signed. Salary is way above average so we thought this and the golden handshake negates the need for severance pay.

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

I would tend to agree with a former student who said, 'Grab while the grabing's [sic] good', just put a bit aside.

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

Given your chances in the H-1B lottery are not great, have you raised the idea of going straight to a green card? Presumably, he is seeing through this semester, so nothing's happening super-quickly anyway.

At-will or no, it's worth noting that it is considered poor form to quit an academic job with less than a year's notice. Given the lead-time on academic hires is in the region of a year, generally speaking, either party is expected to give a year's notice, eg. when you are denied tenure, you still get another year in the job, so you have an opportunity to go on the Fall job market.

It will take his current employer (at least) a year to have the position approved and to complete the recruitment process for his replacement. It's worth keeping on the good side of this system...

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

Hold on! Way too many assumptions a-going on! He works in an academic institution but he is not an academic and not beholden to semesters. The new org applied for 15 H1b's last year and got all of them. Obviously I know this is no guarantee but indicates they know their stuff when it comes to application.

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

My last job was 'at will'. They laid off about 5% of the workforce during my time there, without even breaking into a sweat.

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

Are you sure they meant they put it a total of 15 petitions and they all received visa numbers in the lottery? A clever lawyer may say that all 15 visa applications (that followed prerequisite success in the lottery) were successful...

The nature of a lottery is random. Skill and track record are not factors, beyond not disqualifying oneself.

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

This.

You want to make it as expensive for them to bin you as possible so they bin the person in the next cubicle/office instead.

Try to get cost of packing/storage and shipping, flights home for family, cover for loss of any deposits, cover for temp housing back in the UK and anything else you can think of. You won't get most of it, but it won't seem so unreasonable if you do end up getting some of it and that's an expense to get rid of you that the person next to you won't have.

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

No idea, but with the number of H1b workers they've got there from a certain large country in SE Asia indicates that their lawyers understand what needs to be submitted and by what deadline.

Lottery, hmmm, I've heard from several sources, including an immigration lawyer, that if you're already in the system you're more likely to be 'picked at random'. Hearsay of course but makes sense to me...

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

And 365 degree turn! The employer has basically retracted the job offer after a contract has been signed! Is this allowed? Do we have any rights?

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

For the answer, see your thread title! :lol: ..... You do know what "at will" means, don't you? :unsure:

Yes, they can do that. Your husband has the right to find another job! :rofl:

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

AHA HA HA HA AH AHA HA AHA AHA HA. Sh*t.

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

Sorry. I know how $4!ty that is. :( ...... Welcome to America! :rolleyes:

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

Think of it like a bullet dodged. If they act like that now, can you imagine what the day to day is like working for them.

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

Yes. In fact, he only accepted out of desperation and has continued interviewing in case something better came up...you're right, a lucky escape!

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

Ugh, sorry to hear it. This is a stab in the dark, but is your husband by any chance in the sort of area where a UK company may be able to hire him as an E-1 treaty trader?

Also, are you entertaining the possibility of going home? As Ian likes to remind us, desperation can make us do silly things, and home may be the safest bet.

+1

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

Sorry to hear that. A favourite saying over here...if it looks too good to be true, it probably is. :blink:

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

Sorry too.

Even with the notice period, we felt very insecure with my husband's employment and that played into our move back.

Re: Is an 'at-will' contract the norm?
 

Well, they have to find someway to fund the raises for whoever is left.

I'm being serious.