surly

My father did his National Service in the fifties, he was protecting the homeland from the Greek Cypriots.
I suppose because he was over 6' they put him in the RMP.

paddingtongreen

My brother was in the RAF in Cyprus back then.

I met two men with the same first and last names as me, one was RMP, the other was in his regimental police.

deng890

With that in mind, I'd also like to query the original poster as to where he currently is in life in terms of education/ careerwise. I am certain he is an adult with a career and plenty of (UK) experience behind him. Of course, that was all (more likely than not) gained in a "socialistic" UK university (with 3 year top up fees the equivilant of 1 years worth of books in the US).

If the orginial poster desires a truly "capitalist" experience, how about experiencing America right from the beginning...the astronomical tuition rates, the crushing student loans, the years of work experience with crap/ total lack of health insurance, running the risk of being bankrupt simply by getting sick.

It's easy to embrace an American level of capitalism once you've reaped the benefits of European "socialism." If you were to try it as your average debt ridden 20-something American, I would argue that you'll definetely see it all in a different light.

Xebedee

Al-zo, das ist zehr interestink, Herr Paddinkton.

Which is all a bit odd considering that at the outbreak of WW2, we British had the only fully mechanised land force in Europe.
Oops, forgot Dunkirk.
So much is left out of common knowledge of why things happened the way they did.
Still, thats why they are know as "veterans" and "historians"

paddingtongreen

You're forgetting the German army at the outbreak of war.

The Russian mechanized infantry was fully equipped with halftracks and the intelligence reports on performance put them way ahead of anything before. I used to keep a copy of the operations map when we were on an exercise, and I got to chat with a general about what was going on. It was kind of neat, I was a sapper so our ranks were so far apart that I could argue with him over some things.

Xebedee

No way Alte,

The Krauts never fully motorised. In fact they went into Russia with more horses than Napoleon did. The bulk of the infantry marched into that vast country. Mind you, it took them 4 years to march out again.

They came so close and were it not for that paper-hanger.

Thats pretty cool about the General. So you were a sapper eh?
I have had the priviledge of having met some veterans from that war and learned stories from them. There is a generation passing which the "kids" won't ever hear from directly.
I have known/met/talked with a Polish pilot from the Battle of Britain, a survivor of Dunkirk, a desert rat and even worked in a bakery with an ex-commando.
Pride by association, even if fleeting.

simongb

To answer the original question. Most of us vote Democrat because we are European and we know what's right. We have experienced extremist right wing ideas (remember Hitler) and we know what that leads to. We have a 'been there, done that' attitude when it comes to all these fundamentalist ideas that are churned out by the Republican media/publicity machine. Extremism doesn't work. How many more days do we have to suffer that fool in the White House anyway?

lapin_windstar

1) "We" have also experienced extremist left wing ideology, and I don't think that McCain is any more like Hitler than Clinton is like Stalin.
2) The US has also experienced pretty right-wing politics (McCarthy rather than Hitler).
3) Many European countries have a viable extremist party (Vlaams Block, Front Nationale etc), unlike the US, so that pretty much dismisses the "lessons of experience" argument.
4) You're unlikely to convince many people with the line "we are European and we know what's right"!

snowbunny

I think that the presence of these extremist parties is much more indicative of the freedom of expression and the higher involvement in the political process in Europe vs the US, rather than a higher percentage of loonies in Europe. Think McCarthyism as was cited.

lapin_windstar

I agree and disagree.

There is greater lunacy (or at least political lunacy) and freedom of expression in the US (check out the militias in the Midwest, which have no analog in Europe), but extremist/racist parties scoop up a significant proportion of the vote in many European countries, whereas third parties/non-centrist in the US are insignificant.

In any case, simon's argument was that Europeans are more experienced and historically-aware than Americans, and that's why they don't vote for extremist parties as much as Americans do - but neither half of that argument is true.

Tootsie Frickensprinkles

Im curious as to what grounds you reach this conclusion on?

ugacrew

I second that question? And WTF with the deal over experience??? Where is your fact base on that assertion Lapin?

lapin_windstar

I think it's self-evident, but any argument that tries to discuss the amount of "political lunacy" in a country with a straight face is doomed from the start.

ugacrew: I don't really understand your question (because you haven't written very clearly). Simon's "experience leads to moderation" argument in politics is complete bollocks from start to finish: its underlying assumptions are wrong (that the US hasn't experienced political extremism) and the outcomes it claims don't actually happen (that the US is filled with extremists and Europe is filled with moderates). Perhaps that's why Simon hasn't bothered to come back and discuss it...

RoadWarriorFromLP

If your point is that the US tends to have more lunatic fringe activism based upon guns, while Europe tends to have more xenophobia in its fringe parties, then yes, that is self-evident.

The US tends to end up with more moderate governance, in that the two-party system will tend to pull the system toward the middle. But obviously, we have periods that are less moderate than others (take the current one, for example), and we would certainly have more wackos vying for power if we had a PR-based parliamentary system with a genuine multi-party system in place. We have our nutters, they just don't have the tools needed to progress within the system.

The US system makes change more difficult, which is often good at keeping out some of the riff raff, but is a burden during times when rapid adaptation is necessary. It makes the US inherently conservative, and empowers interests upholding the status quo as spoilers, even when they are in the minority.

qwerty007

What a great post, but where to begin? Rolling back the state, laissez faire, Thatcherism, Reganomics, the so-called market efficiency theory, or whatever you want to call it proved to be one of the biggest mistakes in market history after the 1987 crash. That is acknowledged by the likes of Warren Buffet and George Soros. All part of the conservative agenda. It is a governments job to ensure that markets have some sense of order and stability in order to operate efficiently and fairly. The US has substitued a declining manufacturing base, with financial services where profits are vast, but it moved at such a pace and nobody was ready for it. National and personal debt have sky-rocketed, highly complex financial mechanisms (CDO's etc) have been devised to make vast fortunes out of ether, and we're limping from one bubble to the next. You need someone who at least attempts to understand these issues, as opposed to harking back to the good old days. Europeans have had their fair share of upheavals, and I'm going out on a limb here, but I believe they crave stability and are more risk averse than their US counter parts.

Evangelical, and Christian fundamentalists' preoccupation with terrorism and Islam, the belief that God wants you to be rich, and the war in Iraq have blotted Bush's copy-book the world over. In protest the Saudi's and OPEC raised oil prices, to which the dollar has become pegged, and bang goes your holidays in Europe. You'd be surprised how many Muslims believe the US is on a Crusade against Islam.

US and European politics are quite different. The right in the US leans more to the right than in Europe. The US does not have developed welfare system, inherent in every European country, so for many Europeans, the Democrats are a natural choice.