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When it gets nasty ........plz help

When it gets nasty ........plz help

Old Oct 19th 2010, 5:34 pm
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Unhappy When it gets nasty ........plz help

Hi Guys,

i hope this is something you may be able to help me with, i will try keep it short and rght to the point.

i moved here to the US and married filed paperwork etc... am waitng on its completion... however i have a child here with me born to a previous relationship, while when i moved here myself and my ex had a long convo and made a wrtten mutual agreement between us giving me permsion to bring him here and live wth me on a perminant basis. However i plan on returning to the uk once the paperwork is completed and i have the permission to re-enter, but a real spanner got thrown in the works where he (the ex) has said that when i get to the uk for my visit he isnt going to allow me to take the child out of UK .... can he do this?? or is it just a threat to scare me so to speak?? anyone know where i should go for leagal family matters if that the right route ??? please any help would be greatly apprecated

thanks in advance
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Old Oct 19th 2010, 5:46 pm
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Default Re: When it gets nasty ........plz help

Was the "written mutual agreement" done through court? If not, you probably need to get something from court showing you have custody, and what his visitation rights are.

Perhaps you can talk to a family attorney who has experience with international child custody matters.

Rene
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Old Oct 19th 2010, 5:54 pm
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Default Re: When it gets nasty ........plz help

Originally Posted by C_H View Post
but a real spanner got thrown in the works where he (the ex) has said that when i get to the uk for my visit he isnt going to allow me to take the child out of UK .... can he do this?? or is it just a threat to scare me so to speak?? anyone know where i should go for leagal family matters if that the right route ??? please any help would be greatly apprecated

thanks in advance
As an ex police officer who dealt with Child Abduction matters on a regular basis yes he can. If a child is within the jurisdiction of the English/Welsh courts the consent, as you call him your ex I take it you were married, of both parents to remove the child from that jurisdiction is required. Failing him giving consent you would need an order from a court, normally the High Court, giving you permission to remove the child from the courts jurisdiction.

If you are going to Scotland, their laws on this are different and he would need a court order to prevent you from taking the child out of Scotland.

Contact Reunite for free advice http://www.reunite.org
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Old Oct 19th 2010, 5:56 pm
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Default Re: When it gets nasty ........plz help

Rene, Thankyou!

And in answer to your question No it wasnt done through courts ... was trying to be civil i guess is the right way of putting it, didnt think he would become an issue when he agreed to allowng me to take him however i was wrong, to be honest i should have known but i guess i was hoping it wouldnt happen ..... Gahh such a mess... i will definatly look into the legalitys and see what can be done from this side of the water, i certinatly dont want to get to the UK and have this kind of mess hanging over me and find out im not allowed to take the child out of the country when im waiting at the airport back to USA, the visit is not going to be untill the new year so i have a few months to prepare which gives me a little bit of confidence for now.

P.s. if there are letters missing from my posts i have noticed my I's arent always typing .... sorry i think i got them all in silly keybord!
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Old Oct 19th 2010, 6:04 pm
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Default Re: When it gets nasty ........plz help

Originally Posted by lansbury View Post
As an ex police officer who dealt with Child Abduction matters on a regular basis yes he can. If a child is within the jurisdiction of the English/Welsh courts the consent, as you call him your ex I take it you were married, of both parents to remove the child from that jurisdiction is required. Failing him giving consent you would need an order from a court, normally the High Court, giving you permission to remove the child from the courts jurisdiction.

If you are going to Scotland, their laws on this are different and he would need a court order to prevent you from taking the child out of Scotland.

Contact Reunite for free advice http://www.reunite.org
OH!!! ok .... well to clarifie we werent married ..but i dont think that matters much with the change in law in the uk fathers rights .... oh boy really what a mess this is going to be, well ty very much i am going to have to seek international famly lawers for this im guessing is going to be the best option for a less messy visit to the uk ... i really hoped it wouldnt come to this. thank you iansbury
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Old Oct 19th 2010, 6:30 pm
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Default Re: When it gets nasty ........plz help

Originally Posted by C_H View Post
Rene, Thankyou!

And in answer to your question No it wasnt done through courts ... was trying to be civil i guess is the right way of putting it, didnt think he would become an issue when he agreed to allowng me to take him however i was wrong, to be honest i should have known but i guess i was hoping it wouldnt happen ..... Gahh such a mess... i will definatly look into the legalitys and see what can be done from this side of the water, i certinatly dont want to get to the UK and have this kind of mess hanging over me and find out im not allowed to take the child out of the country when im waiting at the airport back to USA, the visit is not going to be untill the new year so i have a few months to prepare which gives me a little bit of confidence for now.

P.s. if there are letters missing from my posts i have noticed my I's arent always typing .... sorry i think i got them all in silly keybord!
I am going to do a Judge Judy here – what makes you think you have more of a right on this child than your ex? I know you didn’t expressly say so but your comments make me feel you want to child with you. (‘Gahh such a mess’, ‘i certinatly dont want to get to the UK and have this kind of mess hanging over me and find out im not allowed to take the child out of the country when im waiting at the airport back to USA’) I am just questioning that aspect. Well questioning is a strong word as it’s none of my business so call it ‘unsure’ shall we….

I am no expert with the legality around it all or weather the mutual agreement stands or not but at the least, the father should have a say where the child remains.
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Old Oct 19th 2010, 6:41 pm
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Default Re: When it gets nasty ........plz help

Originally Posted by C_H View Post
Rene, Thankyou!

And in answer to your question No it wasnt done through courts ... was trying to be civil i guess is the right way of putting it, didnt think he would become an issue when he agreed to allowng me to take him however i was wrong, to be honest i should have known but i guess i was hoping it wouldnt happen ..... Gahh such a mess... i will definatly look into the legalitys and see what can be done from this side of the water, i certinatly dont want to get to the UK and have this kind of mess hanging over me and find out im not allowed to take the child out of the country when im waiting at the airport back to USA, the visit is not going to be untill the new year so i have a few months to prepare which gives me a little bit of confidence for now.

P.s. if there are letters missing from my posts i have noticed my I's arent always typing .... sorry i think i got them all in silly keybord!
Surely when you applied for your visas, it was clear that you had permission to move the child permanently. Did the ex forget about this?
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Old Oct 19th 2010, 6:48 pm
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Default Re: When it gets nasty ........plz help

Originally Posted by C_H View Post
However i plan on returning to the uk once the paperwork is completed...
I know it sounds simplistic, but as long as the child is outside the UK and you have written permission from the father to that effect... well, it's pretty much a done deal. Must you return to the UK? If you don't return, your written permission remains valid.

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Old Oct 19th 2010, 7:47 pm
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Default Re: When it gets nasty ........plz help

Originally Posted by C_H View Post
OH!!! ok .... well to clarifie we werent married ..but i dont think that matters much with the change in law in the uk fathers rights .... oh boy really what a mess this is going to be, well ty very much i am going to have to seek international famly lawers for this im guessing is going to be the best option for a less messy visit to the uk ... i really hoped it wouldnt come to this. thank you iansbury
OK if you were not married there is a cut off date it is December 1st 2003. If he signed the birth certificate for a child born on or after that date he has parental rights. If he didn't sign it remains as it used to be he doesn't have parental rights he would need to seek a court order.

Permission is required from those having parental rights.
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Old Oct 19th 2010, 7:48 pm
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Default Re: When it gets nasty ........plz help

I have discussed this at length with a solicitor specializing in international child arrangements and custody issues, because i am about to emigrate with my two boys, and i have written consent from my ex but i wanted to know how things would be if we had a disagreement in future.

We are about to get a court order approved setting out visitation agreements we have made.... BUT here is the bit thats important to you: Within a few weeks of leaving the UK and taking up permanent residence in the USA, Jurisdiction transfers to the courts within the State you live. I wont go into what this all means for me- irrelevant.... but what it means for you is, *providing* you actually have written consent from your childrens' father to permanently emigrate to the USA with the kids... The welfare of those children is NOT under UK jursidiction, but USA- if their father wishes to "take back" his permission, or alter the visitation plan you have mutually signed up to, he will have to actually come to the State you live in in the USA, and apply to the court for a brand new agreement. He cannot simply stop you bringing them back to their home, the place in which they habitually reside.

Um, quick comment on E3Only's post - "what makes you think you have more of a right on this child than your ex?"
What on EARTH does it achieve to make a comment like this? The father gave his express written permission in an agreement they both signed up to. If your issue is with people emigrating with their children period, then its probably better to remain quiet on such a sensitive issue, which is extremely emotional and personal to those of us involved in these cases. I highly doubt the OP wished to have her motives or circumstances called into question by a bunch of strangers, she's just worried about her children and wants some advice!
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Old Oct 19th 2010, 7:53 pm
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Default Re: When it gets nasty ........plz help

Originally Posted by meauxna View Post
Surely when you applied for your visas, it was clear that you had permission to move the child permanently. Did the ex forget about this?
Doesn't matter Mo if the child is in the jurisdiction of the English Court he can rescind permission.

I stopped a US child abduction to Israel, both parents USC, using the cannot remove child from England without consent. Father took child from US and transited Heathrow to Tel Aviv. FBI in London connected me to the mother and I asked if the father had her permission to removed the child from England. She said no I arrested him for child abduction as he went to board the aircraft.
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Old Oct 19th 2010, 8:05 pm
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Default Re: When it gets nasty ........plz help

Originally Posted by Madelina View Post
BUT here is the bit thats important to you: Within a few weeks of leaving the UK and taking up permanent residence in the USA, Jurisdiction transfers to the courts within the State you live. I wont go into what this all means for me- irrelevant.... but what it means for you is, *providing* you actually have written consent from your childrens' father to permanently emigrate to the USA with the kids... The welfare of those children is NOT under UK jursidiction, but USA- if their father wishes to "take back" his permission, or alter the visitation plan you have mutually signed up to, he will have to actually come to the State you live in in the USA, and apply to the court for a brand new agreement. He cannot simply stop you bringing them back to their home, the place in which they habitually reside.
That it one of the biggest loads of bad information I have heard a so called expert in child abduction give.

If the father makes an allegation of child abduction and has parental responsibility the police will record it as a crime and issue a port alert to stop the child leaving. The parent would be stopped leaving and arrested for child abduction. Case papers sent to CPS for directions as to prosecute or not. Parent stuck in UK while the matter is resolved.

See my post above where I arrested a USC with an American child who had only resided in the USA. That was a successful prosecution in court. There is a difference between civil law and criminal law on child abduction and the amount of p*** poor advice I've seen lawyers give is beyond belief because they know diddly squat about the criminal side.

I spent 10 years cleaning up the mess these so called experts caused and would back my on the ground, done it got the t-shirt experience against their theory.
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Old Oct 19th 2010, 8:10 pm
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Default Re: When it gets nasty ........plz help

Hey again guys Thank you for all your comments and suggestions .... its really helpful to see both sides of the picture. this is a mission for direction on this matter not a well im his mother im all that counts kinda thing ... i have never dened acess to and never will deny the father in question when it comes to seeing his child i just dont want to have mind games played and so i am tryng to find the facts to ensure that i know what i need to do to help make things as smooth as possible when i eventually return for a vist to my family in the UK

thank you again
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Old Oct 19th 2010, 8:20 pm
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Default Re: When it gets nasty ........plz help

Originally Posted by lansbury View Post
That it one of the biggest loads of bad information I have heard a so called expert in child abduction give.

If the father makes an allegation of child abduction and has parental responsibility the police will record it as a crime and issue a port alert to stop the child leaving. The parent would be stopped leaving and arrested for child abduction. Case papers sent to CPS for directions as to prosecute or not. Parent stuck in UK while the matter is resolved.

See my post above where I arrested a USC with an American child who had only resided in the USA. That was a successful prosecution in court. There is a difference between civil law and criminal law on child abduction and the amount of p*** poor advice I've seen lawyers give is beyond belief because they know diddly squat about the criminal side.

I spent 10 years cleaning up the mess these so called experts caused and would back my on the ground, done it got the t-shirt experience against their theory.
I guess i need to bow to your greater knowledge, but are you saying then, that those of us who gain written consent from the other parent to permanently emigrate to the USA, who sucessfully do so, and who settle and make a home for our children in the USA...are actually in permanent danger of being arrested for child abduction at the whim of the other parent, if we ever return to the UK for a visitand they decide to say "i dont give permission anymore" ? Please dont read any sarcasm or distrust in this question ( i know how written word can be misconstrued, especially around here ) I am genuinely wondering, because i was told that it wouldnt be that way.... i'm kinda freaking out here at just how violent your response was to the legal advice i was given
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Old Oct 19th 2010, 8:47 pm
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Default Re: When it gets nasty ........plz help

Originally Posted by Madelina View Post

Um, quick comment on E3Only's post - "what makes you think you have more of a right on this child than your ex?"
What on EARTH does it achieve to make a comment like this? The father gave his express written permission in an agreement they both signed up to. If your issue is with people emigrating with their children period, then its probably better to remain quiet on such a sensitive issue, which is extremely emotional and personal to those of us involved in these cases. I highly doubt the OP wished to have her motives or circumstances called into question by a bunch of strangers, she's just worried about her children and wants some advice!
Excuse me?

So a stranger is asking me (a stranger) to keep away? Remember, the OP initiated the conversation not me. Further how do you know that the ex is not what is for the best of their child? Why is any parent more deserving than the other? You don’t know jack about the OP (nor do I) and yet you are being defensive.

I am not being insensitive at all; well I certainly didn’t mean to be. I was just making a point This is a public forum and everyone is a stranger so that comment is rubbish.

I sympathize with the OP but that does not mean anything in terms of custody. That’s something legal/court will decide. Not you or I.

Last edited by E3only; Oct 19th 2010 at 8:51 pm.
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