KateSH

Hello,
while technically not a British expat, I have jumped on this forum to access British expats. We are in the position where we may be able to choose our next destination - the choices being London or New York. In both places we (my husband, two boys (6 and 4) and I) would live out of the city - perhaps Chislehurst or Bishops Stortford in the UK and Greenwhich or Montclair/Summit in the US. There are so many positives to both destinations, and of course a few negatives. The primary motivator or decision made on the destination will be where the boys will fit in best, and which place will offer the best/most suitable schooling. We are Australian citizens but have lived in Asia (HK, Japan, Singapore) for 12 years. Our boys were born in Singapore.
Would anyone like to share their experiences or opinions on these destinations. I think we are going to struggle to get the boys into a public school in the UK at such short notice, but then the private schools we have viewed also have waitlists. The private schools in NJ and CT also seem to have long waits/application processes, and I dont know enough about the public system to feel confident in choosing a destination based on that.
Any thoughts/suggestions/ideas would be most welcome.
Thank you.

penguinsix

Hi from Hong Kong,

Is this a short term move (3-year contract) or is this the 'settle down' move?

Jerseygirl

Welcome to BE.

Take a look through Englishmum's posts and threads. She used to live in Summit and has posted excellent information about school, housing, transportation etc for that area of NJ.

http://britishexpats.com/forum/members/englishmum-1486/

KateSH

We are hoping this is a long term move. As I said, our boys are only 6 and 4, and I envisage, all going well, that this will be where they doing their primary and secondary education. We have been 'on the move' for 12 years and now with the children we would like a place to stop.
Thank you Jerseygirl. I shall take a look. I see on a school ranking website that the public schools in Summit score very well, except for matters of diversity.

kodokan

It's admirable that your first thought is for your sons and their happiness and schooling, but honestly, at 4 and 6, providing you live in a 'nice' area, there's almost nothing that can go wrong. I would be deciding based on far bigger lifestyle factors than that; the only school-related consideration is perhaps whether you want your youngest in full time school, ie, the UK, so you can both work (visas permitting).

My son is the poster child for how little anything school-wise really matters before the age of about 12:

4-7: went to three different UK village primary schools as we moved around the country

8-11: went to the local town French-speaking school in Switzerland, with an economically and culturally diverse intake; learned not much except French for at least the first 1–2 years as couldn't understsnd a lot of the lessons*

11-12: was homeschooled for 8 months to transition back to being educated in English prior to our move to the US

12-15 (now): has attended US public schools in an affluent and fairly culturally homogenous area; is accelerated uo a grade in Math and Science and in Honors for all his other classes. This 9th grade kid, who 4 years ago was writing single clause sentence like an 8 yr old - 'I went to the shops. It was very busy at the shops.' - recently scored better on the PSAT than most of the 10th and 11th graders.

(*What he actually learned, which was way more valuable than fractions or spelling, is that he could walk into a classroom and not be able to speak to anyone in it... and still come out just fine. His benchmark for everything is now 'How hard can it be? They'll all speak English - I can just ask!' There's nothing he thinks he can't cope with; it's awesome.)

My daughter's story is much the same - brought her to the US aged almost 8 and unable to read above a kindergarten level in English. She's now 11 and easily meeting 5th grade grade requirements.

Honestly, academically it won't matter a jot what you do. That said, my personal preference, if you were to decide based solely on schooling, is UK for primary, and US for secondary. Maybe it's the intervening years and it's changed anyway, but I feel my son had a much more rounded education in the UK than my daughter's getting now. It seems much more incoherent here, with no obvious arching plan, and way too much use of disjointed, badly-photocopied worksheets rather than textbooks and reliance on candy as a behavior modification tool. That said, she's very happy at school - US primaries do really well at making the kids feel successful, accomplished, and building their self-esteem. I'll patch up the problems with long division later...

I love US high school though. It seems much closer to my US 6th form/ FE college in terms of subjects offered, and how the teachers approach the kids as almost-adults. My son's doing subjects that wouldn't even be offered in a UK school (being able to specialize in certain periods of history that interest him, an A level Psychology equivalent at age 15, choosing a PE elective based solely on racquet sports, Beginning Guitar, etc), and is really blossoming in the almost-college environment compared to friends' kids of the same age, who are stifled and chafing and can't wait to grow up and leave school.

Jerseygirl

If you are you are interested in private schools my daughter went to The Pingry School. The lower school is located in Short Hills...very close to Summit and the middle and upper schools are in Basking Ridge...a few miles down I78.

Pingry School: About Pingry

KateSH

Thank you Kodokan. It is possible that that will be our boys' educational experience too, as this might not be the last stop. Zurich is also on the agenda right now. I am not concerned about their schooling in terms of academics but my eldest boy is shy and not particularly confident so that makes me entirely over-think school options. Your advice though is incredibly helpful and reminds me to put things in perspective.
Thanks Jerseygirl. I will take another look at The Pingry School today. I did see it briefly yesterday. The commute from Jersey to NY compared to Greenwich to NY certainly appears better. I will not work for a year, while I complete my PhD and settle us in, but I would like to work after that. With two working parents, the commute (in terms of timing) becomes paramount.
Thanks again....

kodokan

Ha - actually, Swiss elementary was my very favorite primary school system! It was so rounded, with some academics but a lot of focus on handicrafts, woodworking, singing, field trips (on public transport!), residential trips, etc. My 10 year old son spent several days living in a group teepee in the woods, with no electricity and just a single stand pipe for water, mostly eating sausages cooked on sticks over fires

I loved Swiss KG for my daughter too; it was largely part time and entirely non academic, but taught the kids so much about socialization, working as a group, loads of fine motor skills crafts, organizing and prioritizing their tasks across the week, and so on. Kind of Montessori-ish, very child-focused, just right for 4-6s compared to the full time sit-at-a-desk-and-write hot-housing that the UK schools tend to do. Sucks for working parents, mind you - the kids come home for lunch for 2-3 hours every day right through their school lives!

Class sizes are great too - in my canton, they had to stay under 20; 18 for the younger kids.

So yeah, I'd toss Zurich in the hat, and do local schooling for a few years for the life and language experience.

KateSH

Zurich would be my choice hands down....but it may not be put on the table as an option for us. I think the schooling would be perfect for my son. As you say, it sounds very play based, and hands on. He is a smart boy but more than anything he needs an environment where he can emotionally thrive. The Singapore international system here, I think, is so academic focused, and as he is by far the youngest in the class, he has at times struggled to keep up and even at the age of 5, he knows this.
My fingers remain crossed for a possible Swiss move. But if not, I am perfectly happy with the UK or US also. Its a first world problem having the worries on which of these great destinations to choose from, but with children, it is a worry nonetheless.

penguinsix

One consideration to mention is your citizenship status and the kids status as they get to the university level. At a certain point in the USA they will need (want) US citizenship to make university a bit cheaper. Long term planning I know but something to mention.

I'm in Hong Kong where my son attends an American-based school system and our neighbor is in a UK-style international school. They are both the same age though one is in Year 3 and the other Grade 2, but that said they do almost identical homework, sometimes even the same online projects and whatnot. The UK-based system was doing more reading at a younger age than the American school, but the US school is a few months ahead on math (comparing homework vs. homework).

Honestly, I don't know how I'd decide in your situation. I have concerns more at the secondary level about US and UK education than I do at the primary level. I do wonder about "growing up too fast" that you hear leveled against UK secondary schools and concerns about insularity and immaturity going through American secondary schools, but at this point that is all anecdotal observations having little to do with real data.

I'd also note that I *hate* commuting and driving, so my choice would be not only on where I could be closer to a good school but also services like a grocery, GP, etc.

kodokan

I second what penguinsix says about UK v US secondaries - my 15 yr old and his friends in their US high school are definitely not as adult as my UK friends' kids are. I can only think of one of my son's group who's had a girlfriend yet (and they're all nice-enough looking boys, a couple on the football team, my son has his killer British accent, etc ). Yet in the UK, they seem to have been dating since around age 12, and by 15 are on their 2nd or 3rd relationship, and many of them have become full-blown 'adult' ones. The kids here seem remarkably unconcerned about their appearance despite the lack of uniforms; the UK teens seem obsessed by it from their parents' accounts.

But I wouldn't worry about that as you're years off. I think the main concern about the UK is, as you've identified, that you've missed the cut-off for state school applications (entrance at age 4), and all the good ones are full up. Whereas certainly in our part of the US, if you live in Boundary X, you go to School X.

We pitched up here with 2nd and 6th graders, and plonked them straight into a 10/10 'best school in the district' excelling elementary, by the simple approach of researching online, then handing our relocation realtor a map and saying 'we want to rent a house anywhere in these two square mile blocks'. That's simply not possible in the UK; you will be allocated a school place, but it might be miles from your house and in a school no one else particularly wanted. You would have much more control over the process in the US, if NJ is anything like here.

US schools might also be a better choice for an unconfident child, as they do very well in building (somewhat inflated) self-esteem and making kids feel really good about themselves. I'm not thrilled with the academic instruction at times, but am very happy that my 5th grader continues to like school, think that she is good at it (even when she's not), and feel like she is a valued and included member of the school community. She may suck somewhat at multiplication of fractions - I come to this fresh from a looooong homework bout - but she considers herself 'good at school'. Which is great - I can fix math gaps with a few hours of tutoring, but if a child's classroom experiences make her decide that she's simply no good at school and hates it...

KateSH

Thank you to both of you for great responses. I am so glad that citizenship/long term university arrangements were mentioned as I thought I was turning into a crazy woman for thinking so far ahead. But when you have access to only one passport and it is for a country you don't want to live in, these are the things that you think about.
I am amazed at how difficult the UK system is, in terms of access. I do think a bit of confidence building for my eldest would be a great thing. Over confident children can be annoying, but he is so far off that point that the U.S. system has some way to go before he reaches it. I too had thought about extra tuition if I felt the local US system was making him fall behind. I will be off for at least a year while I finish my own studies so he has extra help at home too.
Can you tell me, what happens with my four year old? Are their nurseries etc? Having been raised in Singapore, he has been at nursery since he turned two so I wouldn't want him to then go back to always being at home. Even if there was something part time.
Thanks again. I should have posted on this forum a week ago.

penguinsix

Some school districts off "pre-K" or "K-4" which is kindergarten for 4-year olds. It's usually a half day or something like that, if it is offered at all.

But generally, you need to look at private day care options which can be somewhat expensive.

kins

Bear in mind that class sizes in UK primaries are typically 30 children. Also they are very very strict about not taking the children out of school during term time to the extent that you will be fined if you do.

Talking to UK teachers online I find them to be quite different to US teachers - a lot of that I think is about having so many more children to manage.

Pulaski

If I was choosing where to live in the US with a family, New York/ NYC would probable be the very last place I would choose. Even if you can afford the insane price of houses and related property taxes the commute can be horrible (assuming a commute into Manhattan).

So if NYC is the only place on offer in the US, I'd take London any/every time.