US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens
#121
Re: US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens
Surely the most appropriate term for a resident who is not a legal immigrant would be "visitor". I was going to say "expat", but that implies legality of residence. But I really don't see why "illegal immigrant" should ever be considered offensive, except by the most precious of snowflakes. It is what it is.
They are not visitors as they are living and working in a country that they have no legal right to do so. The only way they will leave is to be deported.
#122
Re: US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens
Are there any other groups of human lawbreakers that you can think of that are referred to as "illegals" ? Tax evaders?
People who have a bunch of speeding tickets? Their actions are illegal yet it's very rare that we label people like we do undocumented people or people who have overstayed their visas. Such labeling is usually reserved to dehumanize the most heinous of groups like pedophiles and murderers.
Words can start out meaning one thing, and through usage, can become pejoratives. We know that the word nigger is derived from the Spanish/French/Portuguese word for black. Through usage (meaning the way that the word was used against black people) it became offensive.
Anyway, I'm not going to get dragged back into this. If the individual doesn't care about the weight of their own words, why should I? Everybody just go ahead and enjoy using whatever words you like ... who cares what anybody else thinks or how they feel? Right?
My point of view is simply this: You entered the US and did not leave when your visit was up. You chose to break the law and remain in the US. You chose to work here without legal permission. You chose to marry and have a family. Your children are US Citizens and because of that they are entitled to public benefits if you can't provide for them but you benefit from those monies as well and to the section 8 housing monies. You are not entitled to remain here and if you are caught and deported then I do not feel sorry for you or your family. Your children are citizens of your country as well as US citizens. You can chose to take them with you or leave them here with relatives or in foster care. Those are the consequences of your actions. You are making your family pay emotionally and physically for your illegal actions.
Frankly, I am very tired of people who will not accept responsibility for their actions.
Last edited by Rete; Apr 10th 2017 at 7:05 pm.
#123
Re: US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens
The truth is often hurtful. Describing a person who weighs 350 lbs as obese hurts that person's feeling but it is still truthful. What is truly hurtful is driving past that person and yelling out obscenities. The illegal immigrant chose to make themselves illegal.
I worked for an attorney who protested outside of the IRS office every April 15th who refused to file taxes. I called him a criminal as well as an AH.
I don't get this line of thought. These labels are not reserved for dehumanizing a particular group of people. These labels are definitions of their behavior. Just as calling someone who is overstaying their visa or the VWP and living and working in the US illegal. They are not undocumented as undocumented according to the USCIS means they were not inspected at a POE when entering the US. Illegal refers to their behavior after their issued acceptance for a visit to the US has expired. If they find that dehumanizing, that is their problem. It is the appropriate term to describe their actions.
I worked for an attorney who protested outside of the IRS office every April 15th who refused to file taxes. I called him a criminal as well as an AH.
I don't get this line of thought. These labels are not reserved for dehumanizing a particular group of people. These labels are definitions of their behavior. Just as calling someone who is overstaying their visa or the VWP and living and working in the US illegal. They are not undocumented as undocumented according to the USCIS means they were not inspected at a POE when entering the US. Illegal refers to their behavior after their issued acceptance for a visit to the US has expired. If they find that dehumanizing, that is their problem. It is the appropriate term to describe their actions.
For the record, I didn't bring this topic up, it was Morpeth. I have said my piece (in another thread, a long time ago) and I honestly don't care to debate it anymore. I don't feel that strongly about it, it was a topic that others were much more passionate about. I'm not sure why I'm getting lectured about it again.
Are you saying that you view the term illegal alien to be as offensive as the word nigger? That is quite a stretch IMHO.
We have known each other for a very long time. I understand that you are a person who has strong opinions and are not fearful of voicing them, arguing them or debating them. This trait is admirable but sometimes you need to step back and truly listen to other people's point of view. Yours is not the only one with validity.
My point of view is simply this: You entered the US and did not leave when you visit was up. You chose to break the law and remain in the US. You chose to work here without legal permission. You chose to marry and have a family. Your children are US Citizens and because of that they are entitled to public benefits if you can't provide for them but you benefit from those monies as well and to the section 8 housing monies. You are not entitled to remain here and if you are caught and deported then I do not feel sorry for you or your family. Your children are citizens of your country as well as US citizens. You can chose to take them with you or leave them here with relatives or in foster care. Those are the consequences of your actions. You are making your family pay emotionally and physically for your illegal actions.
Frankly, I am very tired of people who will not accept responsibility for their actions.
Frankly, I am very tired of people who will not accept responsibility for their actions.
So maybe we should be enforcing our immigration policies and stop providing so many incentives for these people to come here ---- like the jobs that they come here for. Those jobs that are provided to them, by American companies who are never forced to "accept responsibility for their actions".
Last edited by Leslie; Apr 10th 2017 at 6:28 pm.
#124
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 9,990
Re: US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens
The truth is often hurtful. Describing a person who weighs 350 lbs as obese hurts that person's feeling but it is still truthful. What is truly hurtful is driving past that person and yelling out obscenities. The illegal immigrant chose to make themselves illegal.
I worked for an attorney who protested outside of the IRS office every April 15th who refused to file taxes. I called him a criminal as well as an AH.
I don't get this line of thought. These labels are not reserved for dehumanizing a particular group of people. These labels are definitions of their behavior. Just as calling someone who is overstaying their visa or the VWP and living and working in the US illegal. They are not undocumented as undocumented according to the USCIS means they were not inspected at a POE when entering the US. Illegal refers to their behavior after their issued acceptance for a visit to the US has expired. If they find that dehumanizing, that is their problem. It is the appropriate term to describe their actions.
Are you saying that you view the term illegal alien to be as offensive as the word nigger? That is quite a stretch IMHO.
We have known each other for a very long time. I understand that you are a person who has strong opinions and are not fearful of voicing them, arguing them or debating them. This trait is admirable but sometimes you need to step back and truly listen to other people's point of view. Yours is not the only one with validity.
My point of view is simply this: You entered the US and did not leave when you visit was up. You chose to break the law and remain in the US. You chose to work here without legal permission. You chose to marry and have a family. Your children are US Citizens and because of that they are entitled to public benefits if you can't provide for them but you benefit from those monies as well and to the section 8 housing monies. You are not entitled to remain here and if you are caught and deported then I do not feel sorry for you or your family. Your children are citizens of your country as well as US citizens. You can chose to take them with you or leave them here with relatives or in foster care. Those are the consequences of your actions. You are making your family pay emotionally and physically for your illegal actions.
Frankly, I am very tired of people who will not accept responsibility for their actions.
I worked for an attorney who protested outside of the IRS office every April 15th who refused to file taxes. I called him a criminal as well as an AH.
I don't get this line of thought. These labels are not reserved for dehumanizing a particular group of people. These labels are definitions of their behavior. Just as calling someone who is overstaying their visa or the VWP and living and working in the US illegal. They are not undocumented as undocumented according to the USCIS means they were not inspected at a POE when entering the US. Illegal refers to their behavior after their issued acceptance for a visit to the US has expired. If they find that dehumanizing, that is their problem. It is the appropriate term to describe their actions.
Are you saying that you view the term illegal alien to be as offensive as the word nigger? That is quite a stretch IMHO.
We have known each other for a very long time. I understand that you are a person who has strong opinions and are not fearful of voicing them, arguing them or debating them. This trait is admirable but sometimes you need to step back and truly listen to other people's point of view. Yours is not the only one with validity.
My point of view is simply this: You entered the US and did not leave when you visit was up. You chose to break the law and remain in the US. You chose to work here without legal permission. You chose to marry and have a family. Your children are US Citizens and because of that they are entitled to public benefits if you can't provide for them but you benefit from those monies as well and to the section 8 housing monies. You are not entitled to remain here and if you are caught and deported then I do not feel sorry for you or your family. Your children are citizens of your country as well as US citizens. You can chose to take them with you or leave them here with relatives or in foster care. Those are the consequences of your actions. You are making your family pay emotionally and physically for your illegal actions.
Frankly, I am very tired of people who will not accept responsibility for their actions.
As far as breaking the law, kind of hard to criticize those crossing the border wanting a better life for their families. I would assume any of us faced with similar poverty would do so for our families. It is easy to criticize those responsible in both parties who have not done what is just common sense, to strengthen border control. The fact that America cannot have the willpower to control its own border is just indicative of the ridiculous state of affairs in America these days. If businesses were punished more for hiring people not properly in the country, the flow over the border would dry up pretty fast. Those crossing the border are not doing so because they prefer McDonalds, it is to feed their families and give them opportunity.'
Last edited by morpeth; Apr 10th 2017 at 6:27 pm.
#126
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 9,990
Re: US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens
So based on your intimate experience with the Mexican community, more extensive than mine, I must therefore be wrong. Certainly possible.
As an aside I actually will try to refrain to use the expression in some quarters because I realize haven't had much experience with second generation Mexicans when adults, so you maybe entirely right that it may be offensive and I have no desire to insult or offend anyone.
#127
Re: US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens
No I do not call all law breakers illegals. I call people who come to the US and overstay or sneak into the US without benefit of inspection illegals because that is what they are. Believe at one time it was called unlawful presence. Their presence in the US is illegal. Should I refer to them as criminals, instead? They have, in fact, broken the law.
I don't feel that I came at you with the PC but you were stating that they should not be called illegal aliens but should call them something else. I see that as saying the term is not politically correct. F political correctness. As my father would say, "Call a spade a spade."
Yes, we should be enforcing immigration law across the board. It is near impossible for any country, not just the US, to stop people from staying in their country illegally. There are a myriad of reasons why this cannot be done 100%. Borders are not just land and sea crossings. With the advent of air travel, borders are at every major airport and for the price of a air ticket open to whomever can make it pass the custom agents.
I'm not a liberal nor am I a conservative. I walk the middle road but I truly believe that if you break a law, you pay the price when caught. For example, my idiot first husband was an insurance salesman who would cold canvas. He amassed thousands of dollars of parking tickets, simply throwing them into the trunk of his car. Surprise when one day he found himself locked up for non-payment of those tickets and we didn't have enough in savings to pay his bail or his tickets. It was a misdemeanor but still for what his mom called a slight infraction of the law, he should not have been put in jail. Sorry, Charlie. He remained there overnight while I begged and borrowed enough money to pay the fines.
I don't feel that I came at you with the PC but you were stating that they should not be called illegal aliens but should call them something else. I see that as saying the term is not politically correct. F political correctness. As my father would say, "Call a spade a spade."
Yes, we should be enforcing immigration law across the board. It is near impossible for any country, not just the US, to stop people from staying in their country illegally. There are a myriad of reasons why this cannot be done 100%. Borders are not just land and sea crossings. With the advent of air travel, borders are at every major airport and for the price of a air ticket open to whomever can make it pass the custom agents.
I'm not a liberal nor am I a conservative. I walk the middle road but I truly believe that if you break a law, you pay the price when caught. For example, my idiot first husband was an insurance salesman who would cold canvas. He amassed thousands of dollars of parking tickets, simply throwing them into the trunk of his car. Surprise when one day he found himself locked up for non-payment of those tickets and we didn't have enough in savings to pay his bail or his tickets. It was a misdemeanor but still for what his mom called a slight infraction of the law, he should not have been put in jail. Sorry, Charlie. He remained there overnight while I begged and borrowed enough money to pay the fines.
Last edited by Rete; Apr 10th 2017 at 6:57 pm.
#128
Re: US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens
I will give you the benefit of the doubt then that (a) you speak Spanish (b) that you have socialized with undocumented Mexican immigrants over a number of years (c) and that the ones who I have known and heard in conversation were too ignorant to realize they should be hurt by such a phrase. (d) that you have also worked in Mexico over a number of years and therefore very familiar also with how such a term may be used there in conversation.
So based on your intimate experience with the Mexican community, more extensive than mine, I must therefore be wrong. Certainly possible.
As an aside I actually will try to refrain to use the expression in some quarters because I realize haven't had much experience with second generation Mexicans when adults, so you maybe entirely right that it may be offensive and I have no desire to insult or offend anyone.
So based on your intimate experience with the Mexican community, more extensive than mine, I must therefore be wrong. Certainly possible.
As an aside I actually will try to refrain to use the expression in some quarters because I realize haven't had much experience with second generation Mexicans when adults, so you maybe entirely right that it may be offensive and I have no desire to insult or offend anyone.
#129
Re: US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens
It's difficult enough to try to defend a position that is obviously unpopular on BE. It's ridiculous for me to try to defend things that I never even said.
I'm out.
#130
Re: US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens
Then my apologies, Leslie. I read your post where you said using the term causes them to be hurt.
#131
Re: US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens
When I was growing up in Texas the pejorative for Mexicans that were in the US illegally was "wetback". That was not a word that was used in our home.
#132
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 9,990
Re: US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens
Now you are making assumptions without having facts. Just because Leslie lives in the State of Texas does not mean that she socializes with Mexicans and if she does, there are many who are here legally. It is not your place to assume you know what her life and lifestyle is or isn't.
I agree not my place to assume I know her lifestyle, or assume that she doesn't state things that she has no experience with.
I wasn't aware she lived or lives in Texas, and whether she has had familiarity with recent Mexicans coming in the country on a social basis. Certainly in Texas there are many second and third generation Mexicans- so I think it would be quite logical therefore that she has had more experience with such groups as I have had next to none, and if the term is illegals is offensive and hurtful to those people no reason to not take some care and not use it.