Go Back  British Expats > Living & Moving Abroad > USA
Reload this Page >

US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens

US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens

Old Apr 10th 2017, 5:02 pm
  #121  
Concierge
 
Rete's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 46,358
Rete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens

Originally Posted by Gordon Barlow
Surely the most appropriate term for a resident who is not a legal immigrant would be "visitor". I was going to say "expat", but that implies legality of residence. But I really don't see why "illegal immigrant" should ever be considered offensive, except by the most precious of snowflakes. It is what it is.
Visitor is someone who is here temporarily and will voluntarily leave when their visit is over.

They are not visitors as they are living and working in a country that they have no legal right to do so. The only way they will leave is to be deported.
Rete is offline  
Old Apr 10th 2017, 5:27 pm
  #122  
Concierge
 
Rete's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 46,358
Rete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens

Originally Posted by Leslie
Sometimes when somebody keeps referring to people as "illegals" then I do wonder if they even realize that is a term that the people, that are being referred to, find hurtful.
The truth is often hurtful. Describing a person who weighs 350 lbs as obese hurts that person's feeling but it is still truthful. What is truly hurtful is driving past that person and yelling out obscenities. The illegal immigrant chose to make themselves illegal.

Are there any other groups of human lawbreakers that you can think of that are referred to as "illegals" ? Tax evaders?
I worked for an attorney who protested outside of the IRS office every April 15th who refused to file taxes. I called him a criminal as well as an AH.

People who have a bunch of speeding tickets? Their actions are illegal yet it's very rare that we label people like we do undocumented people or people who have overstayed their visas. Such labeling is usually reserved to dehumanize the most heinous of groups like pedophiles and murderers.
I don't get this line of thought. These labels are not reserved for dehumanizing a particular group of people. These labels are definitions of their behavior. Just as calling someone who is overstaying their visa or the VWP and living and working in the US illegal. They are not undocumented as undocumented according to the USCIS means they were not inspected at a POE when entering the US. Illegal refers to their behavior after their issued acceptance for a visit to the US has expired. If they find that dehumanizing, that is their problem. It is the appropriate term to describe their actions.

Words can start out meaning one thing, and through usage, can become pejoratives. We know that the word nigger is derived from the Spanish/French/Portuguese word for black. Through usage (meaning the way that the word was used against black people) it became offensive.
Are you saying that you view the term illegal alien to be as offensive as the word nigger? That is quite a stretch IMHO.

Anyway, I'm not going to get dragged back into this. If the individual doesn't care about the weight of their own words, why should I? Everybody just go ahead and enjoy using whatever words you like ... who cares what anybody else thinks or how they feel? Right?
We have known each other for a very long time. I understand that you are a person who has strong opinions and are not fearful of voicing them, arguing them or debating them. This trait is admirable but sometimes you need to step back and truly listen to other people's point of view. Yours is not the only one with validity.

My point of view is simply this: You entered the US and did not leave when your visit was up. You chose to break the law and remain in the US. You chose to work here without legal permission. You chose to marry and have a family. Your children are US Citizens and because of that they are entitled to public benefits if you can't provide for them but you benefit from those monies as well and to the section 8 housing monies. You are not entitled to remain here and if you are caught and deported then I do not feel sorry for you or your family. Your children are citizens of your country as well as US citizens. You can chose to take them with you or leave them here with relatives or in foster care. Those are the consequences of your actions. You are making your family pay emotionally and physically for your illegal actions.

Frankly, I am very tired of people who will not accept responsibility for their actions.

Last edited by Rete; Apr 10th 2017 at 7:05 pm.
Rete is offline  
Old Apr 10th 2017, 6:20 pm
  #123  
WTF?
 
Leslie's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Homeostasis
Posts: 79,352
Leslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens

Originally Posted by Rete
The truth is often hurtful. Describing a person who weighs 350 lbs as obese hurts that person's feeling but it is still truthful. What is truly hurtful is driving past that person and yelling out obscenities. The illegal immigrant chose to make themselves illegal.

I worked for an attorney who protested outside of the IRS office every April 15th who refused to file taxes. I called him a criminal as well as an AH.



I don't get this line of thought. These labels are not reserved for dehumanizing a particular group of people. These labels are definitions of their behavior. Just as calling someone who is overstaying their visa or the VWP and living and working in the US illegal. They are not undocumented as undocumented according to the USCIS means they were not inspected at a POE when entering the US. Illegal refers to their behavior after their issued acceptance for a visit to the US has expired. If they find that dehumanizing, that is their problem. It is the appropriate term to describe their actions.
Do you refer to all law breakers as "illegals"?

For the record, I didn't bring this topic up, it was Morpeth. I have said my piece (in another thread, a long time ago) and I honestly don't care to debate it anymore. I don't feel that strongly about it, it was a topic that others were much more passionate about. I'm not sure why I'm getting lectured about it again.



Are you saying that you view the term illegal alien to be as offensive as the word nigger? That is quite a stretch IMHO.
I never said that though it may be true. I used it as an example of how words start out one way and change due to usage. I think that's pretty obvious.



We have known each other for a very long time. I understand that you are a person who has strong opinions and are not fearful of voicing them, arguing them or debating them. This trait is admirable but sometimes you need to step back and truly listen to other people's point of view. Yours is not the only one with validity.
Maybe I would have been more in listening mode if you hadn't come at me (twice) with the "PC" label? Or when you refer to somebody as "PC" do you mean it in a loving and complimentary way?

My point of view is simply this: You entered the US and did not leave when you visit was up. You chose to break the law and remain in the US. You chose to work here without legal permission. You chose to marry and have a family. Your children are US Citizens and because of that they are entitled to public benefits if you can't provide for them but you benefit from those monies as well and to the section 8 housing monies. You are not entitled to remain here and if you are caught and deported then I do not feel sorry for you or your family. Your children are citizens of your country as well as US citizens. You can chose to take them with you or leave them here with relatives or in foster care. Those are the consequences of your actions. You are making your family pay emotionally and physically for your illegal actions.

Frankly, I am very tired of people who will not accept responsibility for their actions.
I agree. Despite what I've been accused of, and how my words have been twisted around, I'm all for enforcement of the existing laws as well as some realistic immigration reform. I have compassion for people who came here because they were desperate for work but I don't think we should make exceptions in the law.

So maybe we should be enforcing our immigration policies and stop providing so many incentives for these people to come here ---- like the jobs that they come here for. Those jobs that are provided to them, by American companies who are never forced to "accept responsibility for their actions".

Last edited by Leslie; Apr 10th 2017 at 6:28 pm.
Leslie is offline  
Old Apr 10th 2017, 6:24 pm
  #124  
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 9,990
morpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens

Originally Posted by Rete
The truth is often hurtful. Describing a person who weighs 350 lbs as obese hurts that person's feeling but it is still truthful. What is truly hurtful is driving past that person and yelling out obscenities. The illegal immigrant chose to make themselves illegal.



I worked for an attorney who protested outside of the IRS office every April 15th who refused to file taxes. I called him a criminal as well as an AH.



I don't get this line of thought. These labels are not reserved for dehumanizing a particular group of people. These labels are definitions of their behavior. Just as calling someone who is overstaying their visa or the VWP and living and working in the US illegal. They are not undocumented as undocumented according to the USCIS means they were not inspected at a POE when entering the US. Illegal refers to their behavior after their issued acceptance for a visit to the US has expired. If they find that dehumanizing, that is their problem. It is the appropriate term to describe their actions.



Are you saying that you view the term illegal alien to be as offensive as the word nigger? That is quite a stretch IMHO.



We have known each other for a very long time. I understand that you are a person who has strong opinions and are not fearful of voicing them, arguing them or debating them. This trait is admirable but sometimes you need to step back and truly listen to other people's point of view. Yours is not the only one with validity.

My point of view is simply this: You entered the US and did not leave when you visit was up. You chose to break the law and remain in the US. You chose to work here without legal permission. You chose to marry and have a family. Your children are US Citizens and because of that they are entitled to public benefits if you can't provide for them but you benefit from those monies as well and to the section 8 housing monies. You are not entitled to remain here and if you are caught and deported then I do not feel sorry for you or your family. Your children are citizens of your country as well as US citizens. You can chose to take them with you or leave them here with relatives or in foster care. Those are the consequences of your actions. You are making your family pay emotionally and physically for your illegal actions.

Frankly, I am very tired of people who will not accept responsibility for their actions.
I know of quite a few undocumented immigrants themselves who use the term "illegals", so I doubted that they would be "hurt" by the term "illegals". However it was pointed out to me on BE forum that the term was hurtful and therefore shouldn't be used. I would be curious those who state the term is so hurtful know very many undocumented Mexican immigrants ( to take a group I am familiar with) - but upon reflection maybe those who were brought up in the Pc America of the 21st century are offended by the term, as may of the left are as well. So no reason to give offense , just it does take time for those of us who are older to try to figure out what is the acceptable terminology. Until reading about this on BE forums I never had heard the term was offensive.

As far as breaking the law, kind of hard to criticize those crossing the border wanting a better life for their families. I would assume any of us faced with similar poverty would do so for our families. It is easy to criticize those responsible in both parties who have not done what is just common sense, to strengthen border control. The fact that America cannot have the willpower to control its own border is just indicative of the ridiculous state of affairs in America these days. If businesses were punished more for hiring people not properly in the country, the flow over the border would dry up pretty fast. Those crossing the border are not doing so because they prefer McDonalds, it is to feed their families and give them opportunity.'

Last edited by morpeth; Apr 10th 2017 at 6:27 pm.
morpeth is offline  
Old Apr 10th 2017, 6:30 pm
  #125  
WTF?
 
Leslie's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Homeostasis
Posts: 79,352
Leslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens

Originally Posted by morpeth
I know of quite a few undocumented immigrants themselves who use the term "illegals"
Of course you do. That doesn't sound the least bit ridiculous and nobody doubts that for a minute.
Leslie is offline  
Old Apr 10th 2017, 6:46 pm
  #126  
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 9,990
morpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens

Originally Posted by Leslie
Of course you do. That doesn't sound the least bit ridiculous and nobody doubts that for a minute.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt then that (a) you speak Spanish (b) that you have socialized with undocumented Mexican immigrants over a number of years (c) and that the ones who I have known and heard in conversation were too ignorant to realize they should be hurt by such a phrase. (d) that you have also worked in Mexico over a number of years and therefore very familiar also with how such a term may be used there in conversation.

So based on your intimate experience with the Mexican community, more extensive than mine, I must therefore be wrong. Certainly possible.

As an aside I actually will try to refrain to use the expression in some quarters because I realize haven't had much experience with second generation Mexicans when adults, so you maybe entirely right that it may be offensive and I have no desire to insult or offend anyone.
morpeth is offline  
Old Apr 10th 2017, 6:52 pm
  #127  
Concierge
 
Rete's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 46,358
Rete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens

No I do not call all law breakers illegals. I call people who come to the US and overstay or sneak into the US without benefit of inspection illegals because that is what they are. Believe at one time it was called unlawful presence. Their presence in the US is illegal. Should I refer to them as criminals, instead? They have, in fact, broken the law.

I don't feel that I came at you with the PC but you were stating that they should not be called illegal aliens but should call them something else. I see that as saying the term is not politically correct. F political correctness. As my father would say, "Call a spade a spade."

Yes, we should be enforcing immigration law across the board. It is near impossible for any country, not just the US, to stop people from staying in their country illegally. There are a myriad of reasons why this cannot be done 100%. Borders are not just land and sea crossings. With the advent of air travel, borders are at every major airport and for the price of a air ticket open to whomever can make it pass the custom agents.

I'm not a liberal nor am I a conservative. I walk the middle road but I truly believe that if you break a law, you pay the price when caught. For example, my idiot first husband was an insurance salesman who would cold canvas. He amassed thousands of dollars of parking tickets, simply throwing them into the trunk of his car. Surprise when one day he found himself locked up for non-payment of those tickets and we didn't have enough in savings to pay his bail or his tickets. It was a misdemeanor but still for what his mom called a slight infraction of the law, he should not have been put in jail. Sorry, Charlie. He remained there overnight while I begged and borrowed enough money to pay the fines.

Last edited by Rete; Apr 10th 2017 at 6:57 pm.
Rete is offline  
Old Apr 10th 2017, 6:56 pm
  #128  
Concierge
 
Rete's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 46,358
Rete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens

Originally Posted by morpeth
I will give you the benefit of the doubt then that (a) you speak Spanish (b) that you have socialized with undocumented Mexican immigrants over a number of years (c) and that the ones who I have known and heard in conversation were too ignorant to realize they should be hurt by such a phrase. (d) that you have also worked in Mexico over a number of years and therefore very familiar also with how such a term may be used there in conversation.

So based on your intimate experience with the Mexican community, more extensive than mine, I must therefore be wrong. Certainly possible.

As an aside I actually will try to refrain to use the expression in some quarters because I realize haven't had much experience with second generation Mexicans when adults, so you maybe entirely right that it may be offensive and I have no desire to insult or offend anyone.
Now you are making assumptions without having facts. Just because Leslie lives in the State of Texas does not mean that she socializes with Mexicans and if she does, there are many who are here legally. It is not your place to assume you know what her life and lifestyle is or isn't.
Rete is offline  
Old Apr 10th 2017, 6:57 pm
  #129  
WTF?
 
Leslie's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Homeostasis
Posts: 79,352
Leslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens

Originally Posted by Rete

I don't feel that I came at you with the PC but you were stating that they should not be called illegal aliens but should call them something else.
That's the problem, Rete. I never said that.

It's difficult enough to try to defend a position that is obviously unpopular on BE. It's ridiculous for me to try to defend things that I never even said.

I'm out.
Leslie is offline  
Old Apr 10th 2017, 7:02 pm
  #130  
Concierge
 
Rete's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 46,358
Rete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens

Originally Posted by Leslie
That's the problem, Rete. I never said that.

It's difficult enough to try to defend a position that is obviously unpopular on BE. It's ridiculous for me to try to defend things that I never even said.

I'm out.
Then my apologies, Leslie. I read your post where you said using the term causes them to be hurt.
Rete is offline  
Old Apr 10th 2017, 7:38 pm
  #131  
WTF?
 
Leslie's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Homeostasis
Posts: 79,352
Leslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond reputeLeslie has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens

Originally Posted by Rete
Then my apologies, Leslie. I read your post where you said using the term causes them to be hurt.
I didn't say "illegal alien". I also was not the one that brought this whole thing up again ... maybe you and morpeth can carry on the discussion since he was so keen to stir this pot. It was based on a debate, from another thread, from several months ago, so you didn't have the complete context.

When I was growing up in Texas the pejorative for Mexicans that were in the US illegally was "wetback". That was not a word that was used in our home.
Leslie is offline  
Old Apr 10th 2017, 8:05 pm
  #132  
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 9,990
morpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US cracking down on overstayers, even if married to US citizens

Originally Posted by Rete
Now you are making assumptions without having facts. Just because Leslie lives in the State of Texas does not mean that she socializes with Mexicans and if she does, there are many who are here legally. It is not your place to assume you know what her life and lifestyle is or isn't.
The assumptions were posed from my standpoint of trying to determine under what set of assumptions I could think of that would indicate her comments about the term illegals being hurtful would be based on experiences I have had. The prior discussion was a bit annoying as her questioning my own experience in that matter.

I agree not my place to assume I know her lifestyle, or assume that she doesn't state things that she has no experience with.

I wasn't aware she lived or lives in Texas, and whether she has had familiarity with recent Mexicans coming in the country on a social basis. Certainly in Texas there are many second and third generation Mexicans- so I think it would be quite logical therefore that she has had more experience with such groups as I have had next to none, and if the term is illegals is offensive and hurtful to those people no reason to not take some care and not use it.
morpeth is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.