Unintended consequences
Feb 15th 2004, 11:01 am
#16
Forum Regular
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 41
Originally posted by NC Penguin
Perhaps. What's wrong with him wanting some financial redress for losing a year of his life detained by the US in a foreign country, away from his family?
Were his human rights respected under the UNICEF Convention on the Rights of the Child? Wait a minute. I just looked at the UNICEF website very briefly. Most interestingly, the convention has been ratified by 192 countries and there are two countries noted that have not ratified. One is the US (the other is Somalia).
Perhaps. What's wrong with him wanting some financial redress for losing a year of his life detained by the US in a foreign country, away from his family?
Were his human rights respected under the UNICEF Convention on the Rights of the Child? Wait a minute. I just looked at the UNICEF website very briefly. Most interestingly, the convention has been ratified by 192 countries and there are two countries noted that have not ratified. One is the US (the other is Somalia).
Feb 15th 2004, 11:17 am
#17
Guest
Posts: n/a
dbj1000 -
I don't know if I would agree with you that I am a "nasty piece of work "- as you so kindly put it - but I know this -
none of my kids would have been so stupid as to stand around with some men with guns - they have too much sense and know that if they "lie down with dogs then they will get up with fleas"
Doesn't sound to me like this boy got punished too much for his stupidity anyway - I am sure its a story which he will tell his kids in years to come. More than our hundreds of dead soldiers will be able to do.
I am all in favour of educating him and giving him a hand - it won't cost much compared to the cost of the war and it will do a lot to improve international relations.
I don't know if I would agree with you that I am a "nasty piece of work "- as you so kindly put it - but I know this -
none of my kids would have been so stupid as to stand around with some men with guns - they have too much sense and know that if they "lie down with dogs then they will get up with fleas"
Doesn't sound to me like this boy got punished too much for his stupidity anyway - I am sure its a story which he will tell his kids in years to come. More than our hundreds of dead soldiers will be able to do.
I am all in favour of educating him and giving him a hand - it won't cost much compared to the cost of the war and it will do a lot to improve international relations.
Feb 15th 2004, 11:44 am
#18
A lion in your lap
Joined: Jul 2003
Location: Sparta NJ
Posts: 7,605
This kid probably wouldn't have to be near any military action in Afghanistan to be near men with guns, it seems that all men in that godforsaken country are armed. At the time he was picked up it sounds like it was pretty difficult to find men who weren't armed.
Jean Dupont - so you have kids, do you? And do you also own guns? I suspect you do.
Lets suppose that you find yourself in the position where armed men come to your house and try to arrest you (for whatever reason) or disarm you. By your rationale you would not be able to complain if your kids were hauled away and incarcerated on another continent for over a year without any contact with you or anybody else.
dbj1000 was right to call you a nasty piece of work.
Jean Dupont - so you have kids, do you? And do you also own guns? I suspect you do.
Lets suppose that you find yourself in the position where armed men come to your house and try to arrest you (for whatever reason) or disarm you. By your rationale you would not be able to complain if your kids were hauled away and incarcerated on another continent for over a year without any contact with you or anybody else.
dbj1000 was right to call you a nasty piece of work.
Feb 15th 2004, 12:01 pm
#19
Guest
Posts: n/a
Elfman - if there was no military action going on what were the US soldiers doing there when they arrested this poor kid?
I do not accept (nasty piece of work that I am ) the rationality of your argument.
I don't actually support the US or UK going in and interfering in the first place but do not think the soldiers have been particularly harsh - in the circumstances.
As far as the scenario you describe goes - well - that's war for you. I have lived through one world war as a child which may be one more than you have. Even old ladies like me can remember what happened when we were kids.
I do not accept (nasty piece of work that I am ) the rationality of your argument.
I don't actually support the US or UK going in and interfering in the first place but do not think the soldiers have been particularly harsh - in the circumstances.
As far as the scenario you describe goes - well - that's war for you. I have lived through one world war as a child which may be one more than you have. Even old ladies like me can remember what happened when we were kids.
Feb 15th 2004, 1:33 pm
#20
A lion in your lap
Joined: Jul 2003
Location: Sparta NJ
Posts: 7,605
So you blindly accept that this kid must have been arrested for being in or around some form of 'military action', when it's fairly well known that in Afghanistan the US military weren't particularly discriminating when they started rounding up al-qaida and taleban suspects - often they ended up being unwittingly duped by their dubious allies to arrest (or bomb) other Afghans just to settle old tribal scores.
The fact is neither of us know the exact circumstances of the kid's arrest but only one of us is not prepared to examine all the possibilities, and only one of us seems to think that locking up 12 year olds for a year with no outside contact is a good thing.
Ok I'll take back nasty if I can sustitute it for fatuous.
The fact is neither of us know the exact circumstances of the kid's arrest but only one of us is not prepared to examine all the possibilities, and only one of us seems to think that locking up 12 year olds for a year with no outside contact is a good thing.
Ok I'll take back nasty if I can sustitute it for fatuous.
Feb 15th 2004, 8:53 pm
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
elfman - you posted:
So you blindly accept that this kid must have been arrested for being in or around some form of 'military action', "
Well of course he was - there were US soldiers there - ergo - it a place of military action.
If you can't see that then there is no point continuing this discussion.
In any case you rely upon insulting me (against forum rules, and basic politeness not that I care) rather than providing any rational proposition in a hopeless attempt to win the "argument".
I will not fall out with you and look forward to reading your next posts on a different topic.
So you blindly accept that this kid must have been arrested for being in or around some form of 'military action', "
Well of course he was - there were US soldiers there - ergo - it a place of military action.
If you can't see that then there is no point continuing this discussion.
In any case you rely upon insulting me (against forum rules, and basic politeness not that I care) rather than providing any rational proposition in a hopeless attempt to win the "argument".
I will not fall out with you and look forward to reading your next posts on a different topic.
Feb 16th 2004, 12:15 pm
#22
A lion in your lap
Joined: Jul 2003
Location: Sparta NJ
Posts: 7,605
OK so I'll apologise for the "insults" (bearing in mind I was merely agreeing with another poster) if you'll concede one point, which is that you simply don't know for sure that this kid was picked up because he was in a military action. If I accept your "there were US soldiers there - ergo - it a place of military action" then that means I spent my childhood in "a place of military action", since I grew up in a town in Suffolk populated largely by US military personnel.
The fact that this child found himself in close proximity to US soldiers could easily be the result of troops coming to his village to arrest all the men present simply on the say-so of some untrustworthy warlord who told the Americans the place was full of al-qaida as a way of settling old tribal scores. This kind of stuff was happening all the time in Afghanistan because the US troops were so lacking in (military) intelligence and adequate local knowledge - sometimes the Afghans even persuaded the Americans to call in airstrikes on rival tribes for this reason.
Anyway, I'm sure everyone else is bored with this by now, but just please accept my point that you simply can't know for sure that the kid deserved to be arrested and imprisoned for all that time.
Thank you and goodnight.
The fact that this child found himself in close proximity to US soldiers could easily be the result of troops coming to his village to arrest all the men present simply on the say-so of some untrustworthy warlord who told the Americans the place was full of al-qaida as a way of settling old tribal scores. This kind of stuff was happening all the time in Afghanistan because the US troops were so lacking in (military) intelligence and adequate local knowledge - sometimes the Afghans even persuaded the Americans to call in airstrikes on rival tribes for this reason.
Anyway, I'm sure everyone else is bored with this by now, but just please accept my point that you simply can't know for sure that the kid deserved to be arrested and imprisoned for all that time.
Thank you and goodnight.
