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UK state pension and USA social security

UK state pension and USA social security

Old Oct 1st 2015, 2:27 am
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by lansbury View Post
I think you should be prepared to break it down into amounts. Starting point being all years counting towards your pension are worth an equal amount. See what the SS folks accept. Unless the UK break it down by years for you it will be impossible to determine what each years payment etc are worth.
Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean by 'equal amount.'

I think HMRC did break it down: first four of my work years are before records were computerized, and are listed only as so many credits. Remaining work years have dates and actual work contribution amounts listed.

For all my voluntary payment years I have kept HMRC correspondence and I paid each year in full.

Thank you for your efforts to help me, I'm almost there!
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Old Oct 1st 2015, 2:43 am
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by hutchiebug View Post
Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean by 'equal amount.'

I think HMRC did break it down: first four of my work years are before records were computerized, and are listed only as so many credits. Remaining work years have dates and actual work contribution amounts listed.

For all my voluntary payment years I have kept HMRC correspondence and I paid each year in full.

Thank you for your efforts to help me, I'm almost there!
By equal amounts I was thinking along these lines.

If your total pension is say £120 a week and your pre 1975 years + work years + voluntary payments = 30 years, each one of those years is equal to £4 a week pension. If HMRC haven't said how the pension was worked out and put a pension value on the pre 1975 and voluntary payments I think SS will expect you to at least suggest a pension value for those years.
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Old Oct 1st 2015, 5:38 pm
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by lansbury View Post
By equal amounts I was thinking along these lines.

If your total pension is say £120 a week and your pre 1975 years + work years + voluntary payments = 30 years, each one of those years is equal to £4 a week pension. If HMRC haven't said how the pension was worked out and put a pension value on the pre 1975 and voluntary payments I think SS will expect you to at least suggest a pension value for those years.
Now I'm with you! On their letter HMRC didn't put a pension value against the categories although I'd calculated it myself. The SS person I saw months ago wanted something official. This helps a lot.
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Old Oct 5th 2015, 2:06 am
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by lansbury View Post
By equal amounts I was thinking along these lines.

If your total pension is say £120 a week and your pre 1975 years + work years + voluntary payments = 30 years, each one of those years is equal to £4 a week pension. If HMRC haven't said how the pension was worked out and put a pension value on the pre 1975 and voluntary payments I think SS will expect you to at least suggest a pension value for those years.
Had a thought - do I use the Basic State Pension amount as my total pension, without all the extras added on (e.g.deferral, etc), or the whole ball of wax? Thanks again.
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Old Oct 5th 2015, 3:50 am
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by hutchiebug View Post
Had a thought - do I use the Basic State Pension amount as my total pension, without all the extras added on (e.g.deferral, etc), or the whole ball of wax? Thanks again.
The deferral as I understand the way SS works it doesn' count, as SS will use the WEP from the date you could have claimed your UK pension. So if you are claiming SS and reach the age you could claim UK pension, WEP then kicks in even if you defer.

Not sure what extras you refer to. I get the basic pension plus earnings related supplement that all would would count if I was subjected to WEP.
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Old Oct 5th 2015, 8:44 pm
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by lansbury View Post
The deferral as I understand the way SS works it doesn' count, as SS will use the WEP from the date you could have claimed your UK pension. So if you are claiming SS and reach the age you could claim UK pension, WEP then kicks in even if you defer.
Can you point me to that information? As far as I can recall, in talking with the SSA I will get my full (un-WEP'd) SS pension at 66 if I continue to work and do not retire from my Civil Service job and take my Civil Service Pension.

I take this to also mean that if I defer my Civil Service Pension, and any other pension to which I am eligible and entitled, ie UK Defined Benefit Pension plus UK State Pension, I will not have WEP applied to my US SS pension until at such time that I do take any of my other pensions.

Of course, I have no way of verifying that the agent was of sufficient seniority, or proficiently versed in International Pensions and WEP to be providing me with the correct information.
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Old Oct 5th 2015, 11:04 pm
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by Disenchanted View Post
Can you point me to that information? As far as I can recall, in talking with the SSA I will get my full (un-WEP'd) SS pension at 66 if I continue to work and do not retire from my Civil Service job and take my Civil Service Pension.

I take this to also mean that if I defer my Civil Service Pension, and any other pension to which I am eligible and entitled, ie UK Defined Benefit Pension plus UK State Pension, I will not have WEP applied to my US SS pension until at such time that I do take any of my other pensions.

Of course, I have no way of verifying that the agent was of sufficient seniority, or proficiently versed in International Pensions and WEP to be providing me with the correct information.
You will need to search for it. I am going from what people have posted as personal experiences in various boards/blogs/forum where such matters are discussed. I believe someone on BE posted they were told by SS that a deferred pension was WEP'ed, but what thread it is in I don't know. These comments were made in reference to the UK State pension only
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Old Oct 6th 2015, 3:02 am
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by lansbury View Post
You will need to search for it. I am going from what people have posted as personal experiences in various boards/blogs/forum where such matters are discussed. I believe someone on BE posted they were told by SS that a deferred pension was WEP'ed, but what thread it is in I don't know. These comments were made in reference to the UK State pension only
I think the information hutchiebug got from the SS agent is accurate. When I was doing search on WEP and the "deferred", I too came to the conclusion that WEP would be imposed going forward from the date one starts receiving the UK State Pension. One member I talked to was also of the same opinion. So, one probably need not even mention UK Pension until they start receiving it. I think the other member you are referring to , may have been talking of "extra Pension" which one can take because of deferring the UK state pension. That too , as I mentioned previously, in my opinion is not WEPable, because it really is not "Pension". It is entirely made up of Interest that DWP pays you for deferring your pension. It is taxable, for sure but not WEPable. However, one need to draw their own conclusion on this. Of course, if one want to pay extra WEP to the SS, I am sure they will be happy to take it. LOL.
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Old Oct 6th 2015, 5:17 am
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by UK2US1979 View Post
I think the information hutchiebug got from the SS agent is accurate. When I was doing search on WEP and the "deferred", I too came to the conclusion that WEP would be imposed going forward from the date one starts receiving the UK State Pension. One member I talked to was also of the same opinion. So, one probably need not even mention UK Pension until they start receiving it. I think the other member you are referring to , may have been talking of "extra Pension" which one can take because of deferring the UK state pension. That too , as I mentioned previously, in my opinion is not WEPable, because it really is not "Pension". It is entirely made up of Interest that DWP pays you for deferring your pension. It is taxable, for sure but not WEPable. However, one need to draw their own conclusion on this. Of course, if one want to pay extra WEP to the SS, I am sure they will be happy to take it. LOL.
Sorry, I meant to say,..the information Disenchanted got......
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Old Oct 6th 2015, 6:29 am
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by UK2US1979 View Post
Sorry, I meant to say,..the information Disenchanted got......
In that case I apologize for misremembering what I had read and posting wrong information.

Not sure I would expect them not to use the full amount to calculate WEP. If you defer for a few years and during those years they do not take the WEP from your pension, I would expect them to use the amount you finally receive. Hopefully what to me seems the logical way is not as you say what they do.
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Old Oct 6th 2015, 7:19 pm
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by lansbury View Post
In that case I apologize for misremembering what I had read and posting wrong information. Not sure I would expect them not to use the full amount to calculate WEP. If you defer for a few years and during those years they do not take the WEP from your pension, I would expect them to use the amount you finally receive. Hopefully what to me seems the logical way is not as you say what they do.
Lansbury, I did not mean that you may be posting wrong information. I did not talk to the member who may have posted information on this topic as it applied to them. It would be helpful if we can access that post. What you say does make sense, though. It comes down to whether the SSA apply WEP only going forward or retroactively. If latter, then it would be a bit complex in that SSA cannot apply WEP for all those deferred years based on the current Pension amount. For example, UK State Pension in prior years is smaller than the current year. That goes for each year. So, SSA has their work cut out for them. As to someone opting for "extra Pension" in lieu of one time lump sum for deferring their pension, I think SSA would want to apply WEP to this amount also ( in addition to the current pension) as you say. It would be up to the individual to make their case that Extra Pension, in actuality is Interest only. Whether the SSA would buy this argument, remains to be seen. When I was researching this sometime back, I did not see any mention, in the SSA manual, of how the deferred pension should be treated for WEP purposes. So, I dont think even the agent would know how to treat it. I guess one has to take a position and try to "educate" them as to why they think it should not be subject to WEP. As been discussed previously, none of the Brit Expats have ever challenged the WEP treatment of the UK State Pension. Technically, WEP should not even be applied to the UK State Pension!!
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Old Oct 6th 2015, 10:56 pm
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by UK2US1979 View Post
Lansbury, I did not mean that you may be posting wrong information.
Not a problem, I think you were right and I had got it arse about face. I have found several online comments where people have assumed, or been told, that if they defer the UK pension WEP doesn't kick in. I can't find anything where someone has deferred and claimed SS to prove it either way.

Searching for the comment where I thought someone had claimed SS and WEP had applied even with a deferred UK State pension, such search keeps pointing back to this thread. I have nothing yet to show my original assertion was correct and the information Disenchanted received was wrong.
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Old Oct 6th 2015, 11:12 pm
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

I can find the question being asked in post #685. Cannot find anyone who answered and I cannot now find anything that I thought I read before. Unless someone pops up and posts in support of what I thought they did (apply WEP from the date the State pension could be claimed) what Disenchanted posted is correct.
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Old Oct 7th 2015, 3:03 am
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

The reason this is of interest to me is that I will be looking at taking my SS pension while still working in a civil service job. I know I will experience maximum WEP reduction because of my Civil Service pension when I retire so the UK pensions I qualify for don't change anything when I'm retired.

When I read the blurb on the SS site stating that it didn't matter how much I earned at SS retirement age, if I wasn't retired I get to keep ALL my SS pension. I presumed this was because I wasn't yet taking my CS pension so I called SSA to see if that was correct.

The agent confirmed that I would not have WEP applied until I started receiving my CS pension, and/or any UK pension, this strategy will at least give me a couple of years of un-WEP'd SS pension if I retire when I plan to at 68. I could defer my SS pension and get 7 to 8 % increase per year but I believe the 2 years at full pension, basically an extra $400/month is more valuable than the 15% increase on my 20 years of contribution SS pension.
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Old Oct 7th 2015, 4:14 am
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by Disenchanted View Post
The reason this is of interest to me is that I will be looking at taking my SS pension while still working in a civil service job. I know I will experience maximum WEP reduction because of my Civil Service pension when I retire so the UK pensions I qualify for don't change anything when I'm retired. When I read the blurb on the SS site stating that it didn't matter how much I earned at SS retirement age, if I wasn't retired I get to keep ALL my SS pension. I presumed this was because I wasn't yet taking my CS pension so I called SSA to see if that was correct. The agent confirmed that I would not have WEP applied until I started receiving my CS pension, and/or any UK pension, this strategy will at least give me a couple of years of un-WEP'd SS pension if I retire when I plan to at 68. I could defer my SS pension and get 7 to 8 % increase per year but I believe the 2 years at full pension, basically an extra $400/month is more valuable than the 15% increase on my 20 years of contribution SS pension.
<<....The agent confirmed that I would not have WEP applied until I started receiving my CS pension, and/or any UK pension, this strategy will at least give me a couple of years of un-WEP'd SS pension ...> There is no question that WEP is not applied until one starts receiving the other pension. The question was whether WEP would be applied retroactively for those couple of deferred years. Even though the agent's answer doesn't specifically say that it wouldn't be retroactive when applied finally ( unless that was the context in which he gave the answer), I still think that it woul be applied only going forward, at least for the UK state pension. While, logically one may argue that it should apply to deferred years also because you had SS payments without the WEP, the other side of the argument is that it shouldn't, because you never had the other pension during those deferred years. p.s: whatever happened to nun? Haven't seen his posts in quite some time.

Last edited by UK2US1979; Oct 7th 2015 at 4:16 am.
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