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UK state pension and USA social security

UK state pension and USA social security

Old Jan 29th 2013, 8:57 am
  #31  
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by J.JsOH View Post
WEP applies to pensions received from salaries that did not contribute to US SS.
So even though a person may pay into the US SS system through US employment it does not excuse that person from WEP on the non-contributing pension - unless the 30 year rule applies as Mummy in Foothills rightly says.
I've read this several times as it appears every time this question is asked - but what exactly does it mean?

During the years I worked in the UK, I paid UK NI, and for the years since I have been back (2006) until I retire (who knows when), into a separate employer pension (a university lecturer's pension scheme).

During the years I woorked in the US, I paid US SS, and also into a separate work "pension" (a 401k).

For 7 years (1983-1990) I paid neither as I was in the Bahamas, and I think from 1990 to about 1994 I paid neither (non-working student).

These years were all separate (I have never done work in the two countries at the same time).

Does this mean my US SS will get WEP'd by my UK state pension, by my UK employer pension, or by both?

And am I correct in thinking there is a "bottom line" by which my US SS won't get WEP'd any more (e.g., can only be WEP'd by up to 60%, or something similar)? Or could I lose it all?
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Old Jan 30th 2013, 4:50 am
  #32  
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

If I understand you correctly, you are asking whether a UK state (DPS) old age retirement pension is considered by Uncle Sam to be "non-contributing".
My understanding is that the years that accrue to Class 1 and/or Class 2 contributions are considered to be "non-contributing". But Class 3 payments are "contributing".
And pro rata to the number of years if mixed.
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Old Jan 31st 2013, 10:34 am
  #33  
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by holly_1948 View Post
If I understand you correctly, you are asking whether a UK state (DPS) old age retirement pension is considered by Uncle Sam to be "non-contributing".
My understanding is that the years that accrue to Class 1 and/or Class 2 contributions are considered to be "non-contributing". But Class 3 payments are "contributing".
And pro rata to the number of years if mixed.
That is helpful - though it seems strange they differentiate betwee the two types of NICs.

I was also asking whether my UK work pension (a final salary scheme for university employees) would also be counted as non-contributing, thereby reducing my SS pension even further.

I also wondered if there is a bottom line below which my SS won't be WEP'd (e.g., regardless of how much WEP-able non-contributing pension that is counted against my SS, it would never fall below X% of my full entitlement)?

Or is it possible that I could get WEP'd down to zero SS pension?
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Old Jan 31st 2013, 3:25 pm
  #34  
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by dunroving View Post
I was also asking whether my UK work pension (a final salary scheme for university employees) would also be counted as non-contributing, thereby reducing my SS pension even further.
Yes, a UK works pension will be included in the WEP calculations to reduce your SS monthly payout.

Originally Posted by dunroving View Post
I also wondered if there is a bottom line below which my SS won't be WEP'd (e.g., regardless of how much WEP-able non-contributing pension that is counted against my SS, it would never fall below X% of my full entitlement)?

Or is it possible that I could get WEP'd down to zero SS pension?
There is a lower limit (%) you are guaranteed.

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/retire2/wep-chart.htm

Go to the chart at the bottom of the page. If you were to retire in 2013, the maximum amount that WEP can be reduced for anyone is $395.50.

So, an example:
You apply for US SS in 2013.
You have 15 years of substantial earnings for US SS contributions, and as a result, your monthly benefit (for your particular work history) is $1000.
You have 21 years of NIC Class 1 contributions to the UK State Pension, and 18 years contribution to a UK company pension plan. The monthly amount of the two combined is £800 ($1200 - there is no set exchange rate for when you apply, it varies day to day. But once calculated, the US SS amount in dollars stays the same forever. If the payment is made in the UK, the exchange rate on the date of each individual payment for the 'set' US dollar amount will be used for each month.).
The WEP calculation is:
You have over $791.00 (the maximum first break point) a month of foreign non-contributing pensions.
(Where did I get $791.00 from? See here:
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/pubs/10045.html#a0=3 )

Your US SS payment would be $1000 minus $395.50 (the maximun amount, 50%, since you had less than 20 years), or $604.50 a month. Your UK pensions remain at $1200 a month. So, your total pension from both US and UK sources would be $1,804.50 a month.

If you have between 20 and 29 years of substantial earning (US SS), the percentage maximum for reduction will change according to the chart. If your US SS monthly payout (before WEP) is below $791 (for 2013), and your years of substantial earnings is below 20, the maximum your SS payout can be reduced by is 50%. Therefore, if the US amount before WEP was $500, and the UK amount was $1200, the US SS would only be reduced to $250 by WEP.

Last edited by theOAP; Jan 31st 2013 at 3:43 pm.
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Old Feb 6th 2013, 11:51 am
  #35  
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

The first thing I want to say this is a minefield is it not.
Every one seems to have a different set of circumstances, these are mine, I worked in the UK for roughly 18 years, I have got a projection of a UK pension that I will receive starting this August. I have checked my substantial earnings in the US for the thirty year period, so the WEP will not apply to me.
I also started to receive a occupational pension which is fairly small and I have paid directly into a bank account I have in the UK, my parents are still alive and living in the UK so I use their address on that bank account, I am aware of the Tax limits ETC on foreign accounts.
My question is this, my understanding is that three months before I become eligible for my UK pension the HRMC will send me a form to apply for it and on that form it will ask if i will be getting SS from another country, and it may if the UK as an agreement with that country go towards my SS payment in that country. I think the UK and US have such an agreement but I was wondering if it will increase my SS payments in the US, what i wanted to do was to get my UK pension paid directly into my Bank account in the UK, and keep my two payments apart. Any input would be gratefully appreciated.
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Old Feb 6th 2013, 1:58 pm
  #36  
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by mariettajohn View Post
My question is this, my understanding is that three months before I become eligible for my UK pension the HRMC will send me a form to apply for it and on that form it will ask if i will be getting SS from another country, and it may if the UK as an agreement with that country go towards my SS payment in that country. I think the UK and US have such an agreement but I was wondering if it will increase my SS payments in the US, what i wanted to do was to get my UK pension paid directly into my Bank account in the UK, and keep my two payments apart. Any input would be gratefully appreciated.
As you qualify for both US and UK state pension on the basis of your contributions into each individual scheme there is no need to apply contributions in one scheme to the other. Any US SS you get will have no effect of your UK state pension, but your UK state pension might reduce your US SS through WEP, if you don't have a complete SS contributions record of 30 years.

If you do have your UK state pension paid into a UK bank make sure HMRC has your tax code correct and that no UK tax is withheld at source!

Last edited by nun; Feb 6th 2013 at 2:49 pm.
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Old Feb 6th 2013, 2:00 pm
  #37  
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by mariettajohn View Post
..... I worked in the UK for roughly 18 years, I have got a projection of a UK pension that I will receive starting this August. I have checked my substantial earnings in the US for the thirty year period, so the WEP will not apply to me.

My question is this, my understanding is that three months before I become eligible for my UK pension the HRMC will send me a form to apply for it and on that form it will ask if i will be getting SS from another country, and it may if the UK as an agreement with that country go towards my SS payment in that country. I think the UK and US have such an agreement but I was wondering if it will increase my SS payments in the US, what i wanted to do was to get my UK pension paid directly into my Bank account in the UK, and keep my two payments apart. Any input would be gratefully appreciated.
As you mention, if you have 30 years of substantial earnings in the US you will not be WEPed due to any UK pension. You will receive your full SSA entitlement.

For the UK: 18 years will qualify you for your UK State Pension. You will receive an amount based on 18 years, but the amount may vary depending upon which set of rules are in force for the UK State Pension at the time of applying.

In your particular case, your UK pensions will not alter or add to your US SS. Your US SS or other US pensions will not alter or add to your UK State Pension amount. Due to meeting the required qualification for each they will be handled as normal, and there will be no interaction between the two. Neither will be adjusted due to the other.

The situation is handled differently if you do not have sufficient contributions to qualify for either the US SS or UK State Pension. The Totalization Treaty can come into play. This may be the cause of confusion for many.

The information regards pensions from other countries on the UK State Pension application is to ensure those who may not qualify for a pension in either the UK or the other country, may in fact receive a relevant pension by way of treaties/agreements.

For example, I had more than 10, but less than 20 substantial years in the US; 18 years NIC in the UK plus company pensions; and 5 years State contributions and company pensions in another EU country. The calculations were as follows:

US: US SS was WEPed due to the UK and other EU State and company pensions. The US SS was reduced by about 30%.

UK: The UK State pension was calculated at 18/45ths (or 43rds, I forget which). Those were the rules for calculation when I applied. All other UK or foreign pensions, including US SS, had (and will have in the future) no consequence if you qualify for the UK State Pension based on sufficient contributions.

Other EU country: Because I had insufficient years of contributions to this State pension, I would not have qualified. BUT, due to an EU treaty/agreement, my years of UK contributions were considered, and I was granted the State Pension for the other EU country. This only occurred due to a ruling that the application for the other EU country must be submitted by the UK DWP. I now receive a State Pension from the other EU country, but for 5 years only (of course, every little bit helps).

On the application for the UK State pension, I noted both US and EU pensions, but I did note that I would make an application to the US SSA directly, and for the UK DWP to stay away (I contacted the Federal Benefits Unit at the US Embassy in London directly). As mentioned before, it was imperative for the UK DWP to be involved in obtaining the other EU country State pension.
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Old Feb 6th 2013, 3:41 pm
  #38  
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

This stuff still really does my head in.

I have been looking at the US SS Web site, specifically regarding being WEP'd and there appear to be three separate criteria as to how much you will get WEP'd by (I can't be *rsed to pull up the information right now but will do so later).

I need to figure this out because it looks like I may be about 8-10 years short of my 35 qualifying years (under the new rules) for a full UK pension.

I need to figure out whether I would receive more (in total) by either (a) receiving US SS (subject to a WEP reduction and the vagaries of the USD/GBP exchange rate) plus my reduced (26/35ths) UK state pension, or (b) using the Totalisation agreement to put my 10 years of US SS towards my UK state pension qualification (and thereby forego receiving US SS pension).

I'm assuming that 10 years US SS would count 10 years towards my UK state pension, but maybe it isn't as simple as that?
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Old Feb 6th 2013, 3:44 pm
  #39  
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Does anyone know the answer to the following:

If you are unemployed in the UK (e.g. made redundant, take early retirement, or return from overseas and can't get a job), do you get NICs while you are unemployed? I realise if you are on benefits (including JSA), you qualify for NIC credits while you are unemployed - but what if you decide you don't want to claim benefits (e.g., you are determined to get by on savings or redundancy pay while you are trying to get a job)?
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Old Feb 6th 2013, 4:16 pm
  #40  
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by dunroving View Post

I need to figure out whether I would receive more (in total) by either (a) receiving US SS (subject to a WEP reduction and the vagaries of the USD/GBP exchange rate) plus my reduced (26/35ths) UK state pension, or (b) using the Totalisation agreement to put my 10 years of US SS towards my UK state pension qualification (and thereby forego receiving US SS pension).

I'm assuming that 10 years US SS would count 10 years towards my UK state pension, but maybe it isn't as simple as that?
Your understanding of the Totalization Agreement isn't correct. It's basically irrelevant in your situation as you qualify for US SS and UK state pension based on your contributions to each individual system. The calculation you should be doing is seeing how deferring US SS or UK state pension will interact with WEP and your total life time expected benefits.
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Old Feb 6th 2013, 4:23 pm
  #41  
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by dunroving View Post
Does anyone know the answer to the following:

If you are unemployed in the UK (e.g. made redundant, take early retirement, or return from overseas and can't get a job), do you get NICs while you are unemployed? I realise if you are on benefits (including JSA), you qualify for NIC credits while you are unemployed - but what if you decide you don't want to claim benefits (e.g., you are determined to get by on savings or redundancy pay while you are trying to get a job)?
If you are officially unemployed and receving benefit you'll get NIC credits. If you are just not working you can pay voluntary NICs.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/nic/ca5603.pdf
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Old Feb 6th 2013, 4:24 pm
  #42  
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by dunroving View Post
Does anyone know the answer to the following:

If you are unemployed in the UK (e.g. made redundant, take early retirement, or return from overseas and can't get a job), do you get NICs while you are unemployed? I realise if you are on benefits (including JSA), you qualify for NIC credits while you are unemployed - but what if you decide you don't want to claim benefits (e.g., you are determined to get by on savings or redundancy pay while you are trying to get a job)?
I don't think so. I am not currently working and not claiming any benefits and I don't anticipate getting credits for this time.

Here is the link which references who is eligible for NI credits...

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/ni/intro/credits.htm
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Old Feb 6th 2013, 4:41 pm
  #43  
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by dunroving View Post
I need to figure out whether I would receive more (in total) by either (a) receiving US SS (subject to a WEP reduction and the vagaries of the USD/GBP exchange rate) plus my reduced (26/35ths) UK state pension, or (b) using the Totalisation agreement to put my 10 years of US SS towards my UK state pension qualification (and thereby forego receiving US SS pension).

I'm assuming that 10 years US SS would count 10 years towards my UK state pension, but maybe it isn't as simple as that?
I'm sure you won't be surprised to hear that, no, it's not that simple.

First, to have a year of substantial earnings for US SS, you must have earned a minimum set amount for each year in which you contributed to SS. See the following chart which lists the required minimum amount of total income subject to SS contributions for each year. If you didn't have the required amount, that year will not count towards your substantial earnings.

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/pubs/10045.html#a0=3

Second, if you have 10 years (40 quarters) which do qualify as substantial earnings years, you qualify for US SS. You will receive US SS. You can not apply those years towards your UK State pension. Why should the UK pay you for a pension that you are already entitled to in the US?

If you do not have the required number of years to qualify in either the US or UK, then the Totalisation Treaty can come into play. It sounds as if you qualify for both US SS and the UK State Pension independently, on their own. If so, you can not use the Totalisation Treaty.

If you have 10 years of substantial US earnings, option b) does not exist. If you don't have 10 years, then you would use your UK State Pension to qualify for US SS. But note, in no case does the amount of benefit increase due to the use of the Treaty. It only qualifies you for a benefit. The benefit amount is still only paid according to the number of years you contributed to the aided pension. You would only be paid an amount equal to 8 years of US SS benefits if you use the Treaty and UK contributions to qualify for the US SS benefit if you only had 8 years of SS substantial earnings.

Clear as mud?
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Old Feb 6th 2013, 5:31 pm
  #44  
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by nun View Post
Your understanding of the Totalization Agreement isn't correct. It's basically irrelevant in your situation as you qualify for US SS and UK state pension based on your contributions to each individual system. The calculation you should be doing is seeing how deferring US SS or UK state pension will interact with WEP and your total life time expected benefits.
Crap. Can't think what else to say.

You see, this is where little terms like "qualify for" can be misinterpreted. I had thought it meant qualify for full pension (in the UK meaning 35 years), whereas I now guess that it means you have the minimum years to get any pension (10 years in the case of US SS, or whatever the UK minimum is - looks like it varies depending on your date of birth).

These were the criteria I found for being WEP'd:

Number 1: A guaranteed maximum amount you will be WEP'd, corresponding to 50% of however much you are receiving from the other (non-USS) pension. For most people, I guess this would be their UK state pension. From this page:

"If you get a relatively low pension, you are protected. The reduction in your Social Security benefit cannot be more than one-half of the amount of your pension that is based on earnings after 1956 on which you did not pay Social Security taxes."

Number 2: A guaranteed maximum amount you will be WEP'd, depending on how many years you contributed to SS, and when you are eligible to retire (defined as when you reach 62). Details and a table on this page.

Number 3: There's also the second table on this page. (Either download the pdf, link at the top right, or click on the heading for the drop-down menu for "How does it work?" For people with < 20 years SS contributions, there is a figure of 40% I'm not sure what this is - anolther "guaranteed minimum" (e.g., you will get at least 40% of your SS pension entitlement)?

My worry is that, using the first two criteria, I estimate I will be "totally WEP'd", i.e., receive no US SS pension at all because the amount of US SS pension I guesstimate I am due to get (see below) is less than 50% of my UK state pension, and also less than the "guaranteed maximum WEP" amount in dollars from criterion number 2.

Is this possible? Could I be WEP'd to the point where I get no US SS pension at all?

I tried using their online calculator but it's difficult, seeing as I don't really know for sure how much US SS pension I should get (because not having a US address means I can't create an account in order to get online information about my record).
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Old Feb 6th 2013, 5:34 pm
  #45  
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Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by nun View Post
If you are officially unemployed and receving benefit you'll get NIC credits. If you are just not working you can pay voluntary NICs.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/nic/ca5603.pdf
So if you are unemployed and elect to receive government benefits, your NICs are paid/credited for you by the government ... but if you are unemployed and elect not to receive benefits (i.e., to save the government/taxpayers money), you have to pay to get NIC credits?

Is it just me or does this seem crazy?
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