UK state pension and USA social security
Apr 7th 2014, 8:24 pm
#286
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: Milwaukie, Oregon
Posts: 9,965
Re: UK state pension and USA social security
For clarification regarding norfolkbroad's situation:
If this is a widow's pension, the amount of the pension should be (IMHO) equal to the full amount (not 50% of) the husband's original SSA pension.
If the husband had been WEPed on their original pension, then (again IMHO) the resulting widow's pension would still be equal to the full amount (pre-WEP) of the husband's pension.
That's how I read the SSA literature. I could be wrong.
If this is a widow's pension, the amount of the pension should be (IMHO) equal to the full amount (not 50% of) the husband's original SSA pension.
If the husband had been WEPed on their original pension, then (again IMHO) the resulting widow's pension would still be equal to the full amount (pre-WEP) of the husband's pension.
That's how I read the SSA literature. I could be wrong.
Apr 7th 2014, 8:25 pm
#287
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: Milwaukie, Oregon
Posts: 9,965
Re: UK state pension and USA social security
OAP - disregard if I've misunderstood (will admit I just saw your post after sending my own - and haven't read thru this entire string) - but nevertheless, - might the confusion possibly arise from fact that I believe Lansbury is referring to UK Government Pensions - whereas you and I are referencing non-govt. benefits....
Apr 7th 2014, 8:32 pm
#288
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Joined: Oct 2011
Location: "LA LA Land"
Posts: 2,447
Re: UK state pension and USA social security
PS:** Okay...here it is....he refers to his own post #182 - which I think? was a reply to you. And now I'm sure I've compounded the confusion.....
Last edited by MMcD; Apr 7th 2014 at 8:42 pm. Reason: lame explanation of the unexplainable
Apr 7th 2014, 8:41 pm
#289
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: Milwaukie, Oregon
Posts: 9,965
Re: UK state pension and USA social security
In that case I was referencing our US SS payments.
Apr 7th 2014, 8:53 pm
#290
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Joined: Oct 2011
Location: "LA LA Land"
Posts: 2,447
Re: UK state pension and USA social security
Well, that's an interesting turn of events.
According to magpye, their US SS pension will be WEPed. That indicates the UK pension resulted from employment in the UK.
From the (lansbury) link:
"If your spouse (magpye) will receive a pension for work not covered by Social Security such as government or foreign employment, the amount of his or her (magpye) Social Security benefits on your (Mr. magpye) record may be reduced.
According to this, magpye may not receive the full 50% of Mr. magpye's SS benefit if 50% of Mr. magpye's pension results in a larger pension for magpye. There is no further discussion of foreign employment on this page, and if one clicks on the blue type link, it only discusses the 'Government Pension Offset', but no mention is made of WEP or a WEPed pension (due to foreign employment) which is paid to the spouse. The same is true for the GPO fact sheet.
I've had a quick look and not found anything, but a thorough search of all the WEP pages and the totalisation agreement may turn up more information. It's possible the totalisation agreement with the UK may have an influence, but that's pure speculation on my part. The above is the only statement I've seen that makes reference to a reduced spouse benefit due to foreign employment.
Using the figures magpye has given in previous posts, and if the reference to foreign employment refers to WEP still being applied to the spouse benefit, it seems magpye would still receive much more from a US SS spouse benefit pension than the post WEP amount of $301/mo. (My guess if this reduction is in fact true - the worst would possibly result in a SS pension of $801/mo.)
For now, all bets are off on everything.
According to magpye, their US SS pension will be WEPed. That indicates the UK pension resulted from employment in the UK.
From the (lansbury) link:
"If your spouse (magpye) will receive a pension for work not covered by Social Security such as government or foreign employment, the amount of his or her (magpye) Social Security benefits on your (Mr. magpye) record may be reduced.
According to this, magpye may not receive the full 50% of Mr. magpye's SS benefit if 50% of Mr. magpye's pension results in a larger pension for magpye. There is no further discussion of foreign employment on this page, and if one clicks on the blue type link, it only discusses the 'Government Pension Offset', but no mention is made of WEP or a WEPed pension (due to foreign employment) which is paid to the spouse. The same is true for the GPO fact sheet.
I've had a quick look and not found anything, but a thorough search of all the WEP pages and the totalisation agreement may turn up more information. It's possible the totalisation agreement with the UK may have an influence, but that's pure speculation on my part. The above is the only statement I've seen that makes reference to a reduced spouse benefit due to foreign employment.
Using the figures magpye has given in previous posts, and if the reference to foreign employment refers to WEP still being applied to the spouse benefit, it seems magpye would still receive much more from a US SS spouse benefit pension than the post WEP amount of $301/mo. (My guess if this reduction is in fact true - the worst would possibly result in a SS pension of $801/mo.)
For now, all bets are off on everything.
Apr 7th 2014, 9:38 pm
#291
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Joined: Apr 2011
Location: The Shire
Posts: 1,117
Re: UK state pension and USA social security
I've probably told this story before, but it might be a good time to repeat it.
I'm familiar with someone who has roughly 20 years worth of contributions to SSA. They also have both State and company pensions in the UK and elsewhere. Their original SSA pension would be equal to (A). Of course, they were WEPed to the tune of 30%, and their resulting pension was therefore (B).
They are married to an NRA and they live in the UK. Once they were in receipt of the pension, and the spouse turned 62, the spouse qualified for a spousal pension from SSA. The spouse had never lived or worked in the US. The spouse was also in receipt of the UK State Pension and a company pension from the UK.
At the prompting of the Federal Benefits Unit at the Embassy, the spouse applied for a SSA spousal pension based on the qualified person's SSA pension. The amount the spouse received originally is 50% of (B) as it stood at that year. Let's call the spousal pension (C). Every year when there is a COLA increase in the qualifying pension (B), it is increased by that amount. The spouses pension is also increased, but always remains 50% of the qualified pension amount (which I believe would equal the COLA figure on their pension).
I don't believe there is anything unique in the US/UK Totalisation Agreement. It gives the right of a spousal pension. If the above is the case for an NRA in the UK (no consideration is given to their UK State pension and UK company pension), why wouldn't the same apply to those living in the US?
I'm familiar with someone who has roughly 20 years worth of contributions to SSA. They also have both State and company pensions in the UK and elsewhere. Their original SSA pension would be equal to (A). Of course, they were WEPed to the tune of 30%, and their resulting pension was therefore (B).
They are married to an NRA and they live in the UK. Once they were in receipt of the pension, and the spouse turned 62, the spouse qualified for a spousal pension from SSA. The spouse had never lived or worked in the US. The spouse was also in receipt of the UK State Pension and a company pension from the UK.
At the prompting of the Federal Benefits Unit at the Embassy, the spouse applied for a SSA spousal pension based on the qualified person's SSA pension. The amount the spouse received originally is 50% of (B) as it stood at that year. Let's call the spousal pension (C). Every year when there is a COLA increase in the qualifying pension (B), it is increased by that amount. The spouses pension is also increased, but always remains 50% of the qualified pension amount (which I believe would equal the COLA figure on their pension).
I don't believe there is anything unique in the US/UK Totalisation Agreement. It gives the right of a spousal pension. If the above is the case for an NRA in the UK (no consideration is given to their UK State pension and UK company pension), why wouldn't the same apply to those living in the US?
Apr 8th 2014, 5:36 pm
#292
Just Joined
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1
Re: UK state pension and USA social security
I just got back from the Social Security office. First of all you have to pass through security, just like at the airport but even worse. They are a lot more thorough. Luckily I had an appointment and was waved to the front of the line otherwise I would probably still be there.
I don't know how much use this information will be to anyone. It looks like I will be getting a widow's pension which is in excess of my pension if I retire at the age of 65. If I retire at the age of 70, my pension will be more. However, I will be receiving a pension from Germany when I'm about 66 or 67 (not quite sure which). The WEP does not apply if you are receiving the pension from somebody else (i.e. widow). It would apply to my pension, so obviously I would be better off keeping the widow's pension and not take mine. Mine would be reduced significantly by the WEP if I chose to take it. Plus you can get married again after the age of 60 and your widow's pension would not be affected.
I asked if I moved to another country, would I still receive the pension. The reply was that since I am a US citizen it would be paid (except in the case of a couple of countries (like North Korea). I did not ask what would happen if I weren't a US citizen.
So, as I said, I really don't know how much help the above is. The only thing I know is make an appointment
I don't know how much use this information will be to anyone. It looks like I will be getting a widow's pension which is in excess of my pension if I retire at the age of 65. If I retire at the age of 70, my pension will be more. However, I will be receiving a pension from Germany when I'm about 66 or 67 (not quite sure which). The WEP does not apply if you are receiving the pension from somebody else (i.e. widow). It would apply to my pension, so obviously I would be better off keeping the widow's pension and not take mine. Mine would be reduced significantly by the WEP if I chose to take it. Plus you can get married again after the age of 60 and your widow's pension would not be affected.
I asked if I moved to another country, would I still receive the pension. The reply was that since I am a US citizen it would be paid (except in the case of a couple of countries (like North Korea). I did not ask what would happen if I weren't a US citizen.
So, as I said, I really don't know how much help the above is. The only thing I know is make an appointment
Apr 8th 2014, 7:10 pm
#294
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Joined: Oct 2011
Location: "LA LA Land"
Posts: 2,447
Re: UK state pension and USA social security
They need to know the amount of your Federal AGI (adjusted gross income).
Your Federal AGI determines how much will be deducted each month for Medicare Part B before you receive your monthly payment.
I believe they obtain this info directly from the IRS...but don't have a clue as to the logistics. It's doubtful they would see, or be interested, in your entire return.
What is your concern?
Your Federal AGI determines how much will be deducted each month for Medicare Part B before you receive your monthly payment.
I believe they obtain this info directly from the IRS...but don't have a clue as to the logistics. It's doubtful they would see, or be interested, in your entire return.
What is your concern?
Apr 9th 2014, 4:23 pm
#295
Forum Regular
Joined: Aug 2013
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 92
Re: UK state pension and USA social security
Just thought I would share this.
My wife received a letter from the UK DWP saying her pension amount would be as noted in the letter which (according to the letter) is 2 GBP something for her existing woman's pension and 60% of my pension calculation which will begin on my 65th birthday in 3 weeks time and be deposited into her bank account in England, a little curious I phoned the DWP pension office to enquire why I had not received my letter telling me my GBP total, to which I was told it had not been agreed upon yet. If my amount has not been agreed upon yet how did they come to work out my wife's 60% of my total?? As far as The Government is concerned Wonders will never cease!
My wife received a letter from the UK DWP saying her pension amount would be as noted in the letter which (according to the letter) is 2 GBP something for her existing woman's pension and 60% of my pension calculation which will begin on my 65th birthday in 3 weeks time and be deposited into her bank account in England, a little curious I phoned the DWP pension office to enquire why I had not received my letter telling me my GBP total, to which I was told it had not been agreed upon yet. If my amount has not been agreed upon yet how did they come to work out my wife's 60% of my total?? As far as The Government is concerned Wonders will never cease!
Apr 9th 2014, 5:09 pm
#296
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: "LA LA Land"
Posts: 2,447
Re: UK state pension and USA social security
Just thought I would share this.
My wife received a letter from the UK DWP saying her pension amount would be as noted in the letter which (according to the letter) is 2 GBP something for her existing woman's pension and 60% of my pension calculation which will begin on my 65th birthday in 3 weeks time and be deposited into her bank account in England, a little curious I phoned the DWP pension office to enquire why I had not received my letter telling me my GBP total, to which I was told it had not been agreed upon yet. If my amount has not been agreed upon yet how did they come to work out my wife's 60% of my total?? As far as The Government is concerned Wonders will never cease!
My wife received a letter from the UK DWP saying her pension amount would be as noted in the letter which (according to the letter) is 2 GBP something for her existing woman's pension and 60% of my pension calculation which will begin on my 65th birthday in 3 weeks time and be deposited into her bank account in England, a little curious I phoned the DWP pension office to enquire why I had not received my letter telling me my GBP total, to which I was told it had not been agreed upon yet. If my amount has not been agreed upon yet how did they come to work out my wife's 60% of my total?? As far as The Government is concerned Wonders will never cease!
The logic of bureaucratic illogic never ceases to stupefy
Apr 10th 2014, 4:44 pm
#297
Forum Regular
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 72
Re: UK state pension and USA social security
The first payment of widow's benefits came through yesterday. Now there's efficiency for you - I had the appointment on Monday and already approved and processed. 
So things can move here sometimes.
So things can move here sometimes.
Apr 10th 2014, 5:28 pm
#298
Forum Regular
Joined: Jun 2012
Location: Seattle
Posts: 90
Re: UK state pension and USA social security
I have one question pertaining to how frequently the WEP is applied.
When I start to collect my US social security (only 23 years substantial earnings) at age 66 in 2019, I will declare to them that since age 65 I have been collecting a U.K. State pension. I will provide proof from DWP in the UK that only 11/30ths of my UK pension is subject to the WEP. That is because I worked in the UK for 11 years before moving to the US. Once I got to the US I voluntarily contributed 19 years worth of NI payments.
Let's say I declare a U.K. Pension of £600 a month, with £220 of it being subject to the WEP. Presumably the dept of social security will reduce my ss payment by £110 ( the maximim 50%), and then use the currency conversion rate of the day ( someday in 2019) to arrive at the sum that they will subtract from my social security check.
Let's say the number they arrive at is $170.
Will they freeze this $170 subtraction from my ss check forever, or will they come back every year and apply the WEP , meaning it will by $175 the following year, $181 the year after that, as the U.K. indexed $170 keeps growing?
FYI my age just sneaks me into the new single tier pension. i will be collecting 30/35th of the full pension.
When I start to collect my US social security (only 23 years substantial earnings) at age 66 in 2019, I will declare to them that since age 65 I have been collecting a U.K. State pension. I will provide proof from DWP in the UK that only 11/30ths of my UK pension is subject to the WEP. That is because I worked in the UK for 11 years before moving to the US. Once I got to the US I voluntarily contributed 19 years worth of NI payments.
Let's say I declare a U.K. Pension of £600 a month, with £220 of it being subject to the WEP. Presumably the dept of social security will reduce my ss payment by £110 ( the maximim 50%), and then use the currency conversion rate of the day ( someday in 2019) to arrive at the sum that they will subtract from my social security check.
Let's say the number they arrive at is $170.
Will they freeze this $170 subtraction from my ss check forever, or will they come back every year and apply the WEP , meaning it will by $175 the following year, $181 the year after that, as the U.K. indexed $170 keeps growing?
FYI my age just sneaks me into the new single tier pension. i will be collecting 30/35th of the full pension.
Apr 10th 2014, 6:13 pm
#300
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Joined: Apr 2011
Location: The Shire
Posts: 1,117
Re: UK state pension and USA social security
That's good news. From everything you have posted, it sounds as though you found a very good and knowledgeable SSA office.