Oms

UK Degrees to North American Degrees

Hi all.

I would like some input from those of you who have some experience in how UK education compares with Canadian and American education.

According to the UK government's 1997 National Committee of Inquiry into Higher Education (Dearing Report):

"the American high school diploma compares in standard with GCSE and the associate degree with GCE A-level and Advanced GNVQ, the bachelor’s degree with a UK pass degree or higher national diploma and the Master’s degree with a bachelor’s honours degree from a British university."

I am particularly interested in the post-secondary educational experience (ie: Bachelor's degrees, Master's Degrees, Chartered Engineers, Incorporated Engineers etc.) of UK students who have moved to Canada or the US.

How was your experience?

PS: I was quoting from Section 7.21 at URL: http://www.ncl.ac.uk/ncihe/

dunroving

Here's my take on things:

U.K. education is not the standard it used to be (8 O-levels is not uncommon today; I'd say only 5% or fewer grammar school students got 8 O-levels back when I took them in the late 70's).

Having said that, you are comparing apples to oranges.

U.S. education is broader and shallower than U.K., all the way through year 2 of bachelors degree (the mile wide, 2 inch deep curriculum, I've heard it called). U.K students specialize a lot earlier (I started "dropping subjects" when I was 12)

The US GED (high school diploma) and SAT test indicate only that you know a little about a lot and can answer standardized multiple choice questions. I'd say the level of knowledge is about that of year 9 or 10 in the U.K.

The first year and a half of the US degree consists of finishing off what you didn't learn in high school, i.e., general education (English, maths, science, humanities, social sciences), THEN they start their degree proper (i.e., classes in their major course of studies).

So, I agree generally with everything except the last statement. A U.K. bachelors degree with honors is NOT the same standard as a decent US masters degree. It is probably about halfway between US bachelors and masters.

Also, the US has a lot more "taught" masters and doctoral programs, i.e., you continue taking classes instead of doing research. My view from experience of teaching in the U.K. is that the standard of learning in UK research masters and doctorates is weaker than the US taught masters and doctorate programs that also contain a research thesis/dissertation.

Of course, the other thing to consider is that the US is not as standardized as the U.K. So, a masters degree from Backwoods College Florida is about as much use as a 50-meter breast stroke badge. A masters from MIT is a higher standard than one from Oxford.

The background I'm drawing on: I have a U.K. secondary education, U.K. Bachelors with honors, U.S. Master of Science and U.S. Ph.D. I have also taught at two US universities and one U.K. university.

NC Penguin

I might add that I've heard that students in Oxbridge (Oxford and Cambridge Universities) who graduate with a Batchelors degree can automatically apply and be granted a Masters without any additional study.




NC Penguin

Pulaski

Unfortunately what the British government sees as a fair comparison (and IMHO it looks about right) is not going to carry any weight in the US, or presumably Canada.

Perversely I have heard that in the US a British/ Australian three year bachelors degree is rated as of a lower standard than a US four year bachelors degree. (.... because it is one year shorter.)

Having said that I don't think that most employers care too much, so long as you have the right sort of qualification - i.e. a bachelors degree is a bachelors degree, a masters is a masters, etc.

Oms

Dunroving:

Your reply was most informative and I agree with your conclusions. However, I do believe that I am comparing apples to apples; albeit perhaps the American Winesap to the British Gladstone.

I submit that the standardized education systems of the industrialized nations have more similarities, in terms of structure and curricula, than differences. This similarity is more evident when we look at the English speaking world and especially the former British colonies.

However, the continuing differences between these various educational systems is what I was focusing upon. As you pointed out, the UK benefits from a greater level of standardisation than the US.

Also, I feel that there is a marked difference in the level of knowledge of an average UK high-school graduate and his/her North American counterpart. It seems to me that there is a greater awareness, on average, of world historical events and current and past geopolitical issues in the UK than in the US or Canada.

Given the choice of studying in either the US or the UK (at least till the level of a Bachelor’s degree), I would definitely prefer the UK education.

Thoughts?

Jabba1

I agree with dunroving. The educational systems in the US and UK respectively, are different. As far as which high school graduates have the greatest level of knowledge, I think it depends on what high schools in the US and UK are being compaired. It has already been stated that US is not as standardized as the UK. I do not believe the results would be the same for every US school as compaired to every UK school.

gonecountry

OMS... humm i get he distinct impression that kids here in the US are much more articulate, able to talk intelligently on a wealth of subjects- my impressio from what i have seen so far is that they learn more things that they will actually use. I mean most of what i studied for GCEs was forgotten the minute i put my pen down in the examination hall. In the US the courses are more eared up to be of use in real life. They do specialise much later and i don't think that is a bad thing.
I am just trying to get my texas teachers certification and have to send of my transcripts etc to be converted.. I do hope my BA Hons degree comes back as a masters! (would mean i'd get paid more).. somehow i doubt it....
Ginny

Taffyles

I agree with OMS. I didn't appreciate my British education until I did a degree here in the US. Okay I had the 'old' style- Grammar school, O and A level education, (and dunroving, I don't know the national statistics in the 70's- when I did my exams- but only a handful of kids in my year got fewer than 5 O levels and most got 8, some 9. Only the top 10 or so got 8 grade 1's, mind you.
And I would put the B.A. at a similar level to A level. I think the article is right on the button.

I think UK education is a far higher standard than the US. The system here is boring for one thing, they generally do the same thing year after year in middle school and High school -just going into a little more depth each year. Fine for slower kids who need it drummed in- but hell for intelligent kids who need a challenge. Which is why high IQ kids are more likely to drop out of high school (and do in greater numbers) than below average kids- this has been researched ad nauseum. However they still do not provide for 'bright' kids- they concentrate on the lower end of the spectrum- great if your child has a learning disability or is average.

I think, and a lot of US teachers do too, that the middle school 3 years are totally unneccessary. A waste of time. UK kids specialise at 16/17 after their GCSEs- they don't start to specialise here until they are 20/21 (2 years into their 4 year B.A. degree). Put side by side the US B.A degree graduate 'might' come out on top in general knowledge quiz, but the UK B.A. graduate will be the specialist. To be considered a specialist here in the US, you have to have a Masters.

My 3 kids were 9, 12, and 13 when we came to the US, and they were all 2 years ahead of their age groups here. And that was in Pennsylvania which has a higher standard of education than the Southern States.

Mind you, I don't like these new proposed changes to the British education system - I think the UK is getting more and more like the US all the time in many ways (not just education).

loopsta29

Don't know if this is relevant but for my H1B, I had to supply all my college certs, I did a 2 yr HND and a 1 YR Foundation Course in the UK and according to the US its an equivalant to a bachelors degree here. Weird, but I always wanted a degree

JulianB

Not strictly speaking my friend. A credentials evaluation service will take into account verifiable work experience as well as your HND, when determining equivalency for H-1B purposes. There is no doubt that some of these evaluation services are more liberal than others, and a good lawyer knows which one to use.

Jabba1

Your saying that a UK child with a learning disablility is screwed because the system only caters to those children with high IQ's? Meanwhile, the US actually tries to help those with learning disabilities? Sounds to me like those kids in the UK who are average, or who suffer from learning disabilities should move immeadiatly to the US.

dunroving

Yes, certainly at the undergraduate level. However, I think in many ways the US masters and, especially, doctoral level degrees are superior. When I taught in the UK I was surprised at the poor understanding of UK doctoral students of (surprisingly) research methods and statistics. I also felt that they specialized much too early. They might know all there was to know about, for example, cellular regulation of metabolism, but didn't know why this was important (couldn't see the big picture). This is especially problematic when these students go on to teach at universities themselves, because they are limited in the areas that they can teach effectively, even at the undergraduate level.

dunroving

US kids are more articulate and able to express themselves, but I think that's more to do with the way they are brought up (i.e., encouraged to talk openly with adults from an early age) than anything to do with their education.

A recent poll revealed that an amazing proportion of US high school students didn't even know what century the War of Indpendence was fought.....

dunroving

Sorry, don't mean to hog the limelight, but I'm on a roll...

I do think there's a difference between a BA (liberal arts degree) and BS degree in the US. I direct a BS degree in exercise science, and I'd definitely describe my graduates as being "specialists"

There is currently a philosophical to-do in higher ed here as to whether universities should be educating students to think in a certain way (i.e., be learned people who understand the world from various perspectives), or to have skills and knowledge within a discipline that will prepare them for a specific profession. The latter end of the continuum may not be equivalent in depth to a Brit undergraduate degree, but it's certainly a lot closer than a US BA degree. I'd certainly say the "typical" BS (not that there is such a thing) in the US is of a higher level of understanding and specialization than a handful of British A/S levels. However, the typical liberal arts BA is probably not much higher/different than 4 A-levels in, say, English, a social science, a foreign language, and a humanities.

Taffyles

Average ability kids in UK would probably be 'gifted' here. But what I was saying is the standard of education is lower here- the system is geared more for the lower 25% ability than the higher 25%. Children with learning disorders would undoubtedly get more help in this system than the UK.
The system as is- is repetitive and suits those who learn at a slower pace.
High IQ kids are at high risk of dropping out by the time they get to High School- that's well researched. They are not catered for in the system, and far too many of them are falling through the net. This is almost common knowledge here now. Many American parents will tell you the same thing- its a heck of a job keeping intelligent kids in High School.

My 3 kids were a full 2 years ahead of their grade level when we put them into school here. They did come out of really good schools in UK though. But most kids coming over from UK, that I've known, are well ahead of their age groups here.