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UK Banruptcy How does it affect you in USA?
I am in the process of considering my options in the UK to deal with a lot of debts (approx £70K) run up through my failed attempt at self employment. I have a perm residents visa through my wife(USC) and will be moving to USA in OCT 2003.
I am looking at voluntary bankruptcy in the UK to wipe out the debts here before i leave. Has anyone ever had similar problem? How does bankruptcy in the UK effect you in the USA? I am aware that mostly court orders from the UK are non enforceable in the USA except court orders for an amount of money eg CCJ's. So what happens to the normal legal restrictions placed upon a bankrupt once you leave the jursidiction? I would appreciate any experiences anyone out there might have on this to help me make better decision. regards, Duncan (P.S. If anyone wishes to lecture about financial responsibility and so on please F:mad: off, i have heard it before and dont need lectures, try your wisdom on those people who did not pay me for the business services i provided to them, I just need useful advice to deal with a major problem for me and my wife not morality lectures). |
My piece of advice would be to change your surname prior to leaving permanently, it is the only way to leave your past behind.
True it may be the case that a UK debt cannot be enforced by a US court unless for direct capital repayment. But remember this Duncan, financially the world is a smaller place today and credit reports will follow you to the end of the earth. Bad credit reports will screw you every which way possible and believe me you cant exist, out there without some kind of credit rating. All the best - Mark |
Originally posted by mark19964 My piece of advice would be to change your surname prior to leaving permanently, it is the only way to leave your past behind. True it may be the case that a UK debt cannot be enforced by a US court unless for direct capital repayment. But remember this Duncan, financially the world is a smaller place today and credit reports will follow you to the end of the earth. Bad credit reports will screw you every which way possible and believe me you cant exist, out there without some kind of credit rating. All the best - Mark What is your basis for the claim that credit reports will follow you to the ends of the earth? This myth of a new global order is nonsense. Most things are still organised and regulated on a purely country by country basis. Just because technology has shortened the distance between nations it does not mean that technology has altered the fundementals of international law. Cross border effects are regulated by way of international treaty on a bilateral or multilateral basis eg. 1971 Hague Convention on enforcement of Civil judgements, which the USA has not signed or ratified by the way. The enforceability of UK Court orders is a state by state matter, however i know that MA were i am going does allow foreign money order judgements to be enforced on a 'full faith and credit' basis as if from a US State (See Chapter 235, Section 23A of General Laws of Massachussetts). This is limited to where the foreign court would recognise a MA judgement but as the UK allows US judgements to be enforced under the Administration Of Justice Act 1981 then ergo MA will allow the enforcement of a UK court order for an amount of money eg. a CCJ. I know this because i have carefully researched it. Now on the subject of credit reports. Just because a computer could inform you of your credit record in the UK it does not mean that it is accessible for use in connection anything outside of the UK. A non UK based creditor will not be allowed acess to my UK record or there would be a breach of the Data Protection Act and a criminal offence is committed. In the USA i will be blank sheet as far as credit is concerned and thats about it. Bankruptcy does not effect me in the USA as much as it would if i stayed in the UK except in that 'if asked' i would have to declare undischarged status or be making a false declaration. If you dont declare in the UK even if not asked then you committ a criminal offence, but here is where international law is so interesting in the US this would not apply as no UK court has extra territorial jurisdiction (ie to committ a UK crime you must be on UK territory, and since 1776 the USA has not been UK territory so no crime!) hence i would only need to tell people in the USA who actually asked me. You see the nuances are quite significant and thats why i wondered if anyone had direct experience of it. If you intend to attempt to advise people on here please at least know what you are talking about. If you are right then i would appreciate references to your sources so i can adjust my own research accordingly. Otherwise dont just perpetuate urban myths about our hi-tech borderless world just say 'i dont know'. regards, Duncan |
just say 'i dont know' |
Originally posted by 17782023 Not very helpful but i assume you mean well. I dont wish to leave my past behind i just wish to resolve my financial situation one way or another. I do not have sufficient assets to repay all my debtors, and as i dont own a tree on which money will grow bankruptcy becomes an obvious option. Just testing out options at this stage. What is your basis for the claim that credit reports will follow you to the ends of the earth? This myth of a new global order is nonsense. Most things are still organised and regulated on a purely country by country basis. Just because technology has shortened the distance between nations it does not mean that technology has altered the fundementals of international law. Cross border effects are regulated by way of international treaty on a bilateral or multilateral basis eg. 1971 Hague Convention on enforcement of Civil judgements, which the USA has not signed or ratified by the way. The enforceability of UK Court orders is a state by state matter, however i know that MA were i am going does allow foreign money order judgements to be enforced on a 'full faith and credit' basis as if from a US State (See Chapter 235, Section 23A of General Laws of Massachussetts). This is limited to where the foreign court would recognise a MA judgement but as the UK allows US judgements to be enforced under the Administration Of Justice Act 1981 then ergo MA will allow the enforcement of a UK court order for an amount of money eg. a CCJ. I know this because i have carefully researched it. Now on the subject of credit reports. Just because a computer could inform you of your credit record in the UK it does not mean that it is accessible for use in connection anything outside of the UK. A non UK based creditor will not be allowed acess to my UK record or there would be a breach of the Data Protection Act and a criminal offence is committed. In the USA i will be blank sheet as far as credit is concerned and thats about it. Bankruptcy does not effect me in the USA as much as it would if i stayed in the UK except in that 'if asked' i would have to declare undischarged status or be making a false declaration. If you dont declare in the UK even if not asked then you committ a criminal offence, but here is where international law is so interesting in the US this would not apply as no UK court has extra territorial jurisdiction (ie to committ a UK crime you must be on UK territory, and since 1776 the USA has not been UK territory so no crime!) hence i would only need to tell people in the USA who actually asked me. You see the nuances are quite significant and thats why i wondered if anyone had direct experience of it. If you intend to attempt to advise people on here please at least know what you are talking about. If you are right then i would appreciate references to your sources so i can adjust my own research accordingly. Otherwise dont just perpetuate urban myths about our hi-tech borderless world just say 'i dont know'. regards, Duncan Chances are that once in the US your wife's credit rating will effectively become your own , they tend to look at the household credit rating, or certainly at least your spouse's, when evaluating you for smaller loans/credit lines such as cars, credit cards etc ( smaller = $50k or so). Mortgages are secured on the property and the rate and # of points you receive are determined by your credit rating I believe. I came here as basicaly a "blank" credit rating, Amex wouldn't give me car insurance as I hadn't been driving here for at least 5 years - despite the fact that they were my previous insurer in the UK. I could have brought my Amex charge card account with me I think but never bothered to as my husband has an Amex account already. Here in the US I believe that bankcrupcy only stay with you for seven years, possibly even if it is undischarged. It really doesn't seem to be the deal it is in the UK. I know someone who filed for bankcrupcy a few years ago due to a failed business and who had creditors bombarding him with offers of loans less than a year later.... go figure. Best of luck Duncan, I hope that you get the chance you seek and that life cuts you a break. Be nice - Mark was only trying to be helpful I'm sure - at least he tried to give you an answer. For the most part we are just a bunch of laypeople navigating our way through the system somewhat haphazardly :) |
Originally posted by lairdside Be nice - Mark was only trying to be helpful I'm sure - at least he tried to give you an answer. For the most part we are just a bunch of laypeople navigating our way through the system somewhat haphazardly :) Musings and opinions are not always helpful. And sometimes can confuse the issue, IMHO... |
Originally posted by Ranjini Not entirely haphazard, Liard. More often than not, someone with experience in a similar situation will come along and tell you exactly what he/she did. This has been so in my experience. Musings and opinions are not always helpful. And sometimes can confuse the issue, IMHO... He left the industry because he didn't like the path it was taking ironically. The OP is a British barrister from what I remember which is why I added the "layperson" coment. We for the most part have only our experiences and some limited knowledge of the internal practices of the credit industry in the US. It's haphazard in that much may be discretionary and vary from poster to poster at different times and locations. Many may suceed where others fail without necessarily knowing exactly why. Even reading the law library isn't going to tell you exactly what the internal guidelines of a particular company are - just what the supposed limits to what they can do are. |
Originally posted by lairdside The impression which I have is that some companies with UK subsiduaries or vice versa may access information from the UK - presumably from their own sources. Chances are that once in the US your wife's credit rating will effectively become your own , they tend to look at the household credit rating, or certainly at least your spouse's, when evaluating you for smaller loans/credit lines such as cars, credit cards etc ( smaller = $50k or so). Mortgages are secured on the property and the rate and # of points you receive are determined by your credit rating I believe. I came here as basicaly a "blank" credit rating, Amex wouldn't give me car insurance as I hadn't been driving here for at least 5 years - despite the fact that they were my previous insurer in the UK. I could have brought my Amex charge card account with me I think but never bothered to as my husband has an Amex account already. Here in the US I believe that bankcrupcy only stay with you for seven years, possibly even if it is undischarged. It really doesn't seem to be the deal it is in the UK. I know someone who filed for bankcrupcy a few years ago due to a failed business and who had creditors bombarding him with offers of loans less than a year later.... go figure. Best of luck Duncan, I hope that you get the chance you seek and that life cuts you a break. Be nice - Mark was only trying to be helpful I'm sure - at least he tried to give you an answer. For the most part we are just a bunch of laypeople navigating our way through the system somewhat haphazardly :) I wasnt trying to jump down marks throat but it is dangerous for people to just muse at others expense if he has useful informtion then share it if not why not admit that he has no direct knowledge? If people wnat to say something then say good luck or sorry about your troubles but dont add to it with mistaken information. Yes your are right by the way i was a british barrister and if all the Solicitors i had worked for had paid me i still would be. Unfortunately by way of historical anachronism i can not sue for my fees hence when they dont pay i have little i can do, you can complain to out professional body but if you do then other firms will stop givng you work its a catch 22 you dont get paid but if you bitch you dont even get work. Hey you live and learn eh. Thanks for your advice though. regards, Duncan |
Originally posted by 17782023 Thank you thats useful and helpful. I wasnt trying to jump down marks throat but it is dangerous for people to just muse at others expense if he has useful informtion then share it if not why not admit that he has no direct knowledge? If people wnat to say something then say good luck or sorry about your troubles but dont add to it with mistaken information. Yes your are right by the way i was a british barrister and if all the Solicitors i had worked for had paid me i still would be. Unfortunately by way of historical anachronism i can not sue for my fees hence when they dont pay i have little i can do, you can complain to out professional body but if you do then other firms will stop givng you work its a catch 22 you dont get paid but if you bitch you dont even get work. Hey you live and learn eh. Thanks for your advice though. regards, Duncan I tend to be an advocate for peace in general although I too have my moments :rolleyes: You probably already know this but lawyers here often ask for their fees in advance, or at least a retainer. Mr F, an immigration attorney who posts on here has remarked upon the fact that former British solicitors and barristers now practising in the US may work in a practice together. I've never heard of one lawyer sueing another being considered incongruous here, although I could be wrong. I've found the differences between the way that things are done here and the oral tradition in the UK quite interesting. There's so much of an attitude which I have experienced in the UK of "you can't do that as it's simply not the done thing" which I have not found to be case here. Especially in comparison with Northern Ireland which runs (at least) several decades behind the mainland IMHO. Welcome to the New World :) |
Originally posted by lairdside There's so much of an attitude which I have experienced in the UK of "you can't do that as it's simply not the done thing" which I have not found to be case here. Especially in comparison with Northern Ireland which runs (at least) several decades behind the mainland IMHO. Welcome to the New World :) But to get back to the poster's original question, I just have the feeling that his bankcruptcy in the UK will not affect anything in the US. Basically, anyone starting out in the US starts out with no credit history negative or otherwise IMHO. This is something the OP should consider posting OT (off topic) on the marriage-based forum. I just have the feeling that Rete may know something about this. Or someone else.... |
Originally posted by Ranjini Yep. That's the way it works. My hubby remarks quite often (very proudly) that I have started thinking like an American :rolleyes: It just happens I guess, over time ... But to get back to the poster's original question, I just have the feeling that his bankcruptcy in the UK will not affect anything in the US. Basically, anyone starting out in the US starts out with no credit history negative or otherwise IMHO. This is something the OP should consider posting OT (off topic) on the marriage-based forum. I just have the feeling that Rete may know something about this. Or someone else.... I embraced it with open arms, I was tired of people in the UK being seemingly more interested in "who my family was" and here I have found people to be willing to accept me in my own right, on my own terms. I'm not anyone's child, or wife, but myself and am considered as such. A friend of mine is from Lagos and says that there people won't consider you unless you are from an influential family, regardles of qualifications. She moved here several years ago through employment based immigration and has never looked back. She loves the way that people are prepared to give you a chance to prove yourself upon your own merits here. I'm only a newcomer to the US comparatively but would already find it very dificult to go back to dealing with the old attitudes. I can't say that I'd want to either. To me it's one of the things that epitomizes the spirit that makes the US "free". |
In such a spirit I am sharply awoken by the fact that the fact that my husband's business is international and so hence this is this morning's light reading:
http://www.eudigitalsales.com/Directive.htm Oh joy....... He wants me to figure out to what extent it applies to us and what we should do.... The attorney isn't entirely sure either. |
Originally posted by lairdside You love it too huh? I embraced it with open arms, I was tired of people in the UK being seemingly more interested in "who my family was" and here I have found people to be willing to accept me in my own right, on my own terms. I'm not anyone's child, or wife, but myself and am considered as such. A friend of mine is from Lagos and says that there people won't consider you unless you are from an influential family, regardles of qualifications. She moved here several years ago through employment based immigration and has never looked back. She loves the way that people are prepared to give you a chance to prove yourself upon your own merits here. I'm only a newcomer to the US comparatively but would already find it very dificult to go back to dealing with the old attitudes. I can't say that I'd want to either. To me it's one of the things that epitomizes the spirit that makes the US "free". |
Originally posted by Ranjini Not to hijack this thread or anything, but I just have to agree with you here, Laird. I could never go back to living with the old attitudes either. This is something my daughter remarked on when she graduated from College, here in the US. That she could never come home to live with all the "narrow-minded" attitudes, once she had discovered how it was, to be able to throw all of it off and be truly "free". Her Dad's family was a very high-profile political family and you know how that goes.... Granted that he's moving to MA I think and where I live, NV, is "Western' Texas" so attitudes vary from coast-to-coast. I still think that by comparison he won't know himself here. I am also sorry if I am hi-jacking the thread but this to me is a reflection of a general attitude which hopefully will continue in practise and statute here. Duncan, leave the lectures behind (NI is full of em :) ) and please feel free to tell anyone who proposes to give you one exactly where they can go and what they can do with it...... Just to clarify I love Northern Ireland and it's people. I just wouldn't want to live there anymore. When I lived on the mainland before coming here people in GB thought I'd left because of the "violence".. rofl. NI actually has the lowest crime rate in the UK, including violent crime. It was the restrictive social attitudes that got my goat more than anything, the preoccupation with comforming to what everyone else's idea of being "respectable" was. Now when I go back I'm just a beastly American defector (I was in Belfast several times last year)- can't say it bothered me..lol Everyone is different, I have found that here suits me much better thank you :) Now totally O/T - is "Give My Head Peace" still running on BBC NI? |
Btw just to add. I spoke with a lady this morning who is an attorney in CA. She formerly practised law as a solicitor in London for three years.
She said that sueing another attorney for payment for services rendered there is no problem. |
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