Stopped for shoplifting (stealing, not trying to lift the shop up ;))
Dec 20th 2006, 1:59 pm
#31
Bloody Yank
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 4,186
Re: Stopped for shoplifting (stealing, not trying to lift the shop up ;))
Originally Posted by Dogbyte
Firstly I know little about US lawand its workings, but from my knowledge of UK Criminal Law, I would consider that the following are the same.You were detained inside the store.Wrong, the offender has to have left the store,prior to being detained by representatives of the store.(reason you may have been going to the light to see if the item was the right colour in normal light prior to purchase.)They have to clearly ID themselves to you. They have to tell you why you are being detained,the full circumstances,if practicable(ie calm & not fighting)If you are detained and anyone alledges you have removed property without permission then the Police should automatically be called to assess the circumstances.One of the main points you might think about is that all stores now have internal video cameras and your alledged actions should therefore be potrayed on the video.If not, where was their evidence in the first place to detain you.If one of the employees states that he/she saw you remove property then what was it and in what location of the store. You are not obliged to remove any personel property by the staff of the store until a Police officer arrives.They cannot search you themselves.It is easy to say now, but the Police should have been called.What they did was totally unlawful and the fact that the manager is offering you a bribe(which is what that amounts to) they know they were totally out of order.I understand that you have taken legal advice but I would also visit your local police Station and seek advice, as there were criminal actions taken by staff of the store.I understand, that along with others, it is the easy way to try and get compensation from the store but the actions are much more serious than that.There is no justification in their actions whatsoever.If the advice you sought by putting the details on here are so distressing and you found it to be so as you said, for the safety of others take some serious form of action.You should just not be treated this way. The Law is there to protect people like you and me in whatever country we find ourselves in.
Dec 20th 2006, 2:21 pm
#32
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 3,338
Re: Stopped for shoplifting (stealing, not trying to lift the shop up ;))
Originally Posted by franc11s
Personally, I would have just emptied my pockets in front of the old geezer to prove my innocence and if he was polite, would have wished him a good day. If he wasn't polite I would have emptied my pockets and then told him to fxxc off. And then NOT missed the key event.
IMHO - that's where you went wrong. Shop-lifting is a crime that's hard to detect. The old' geezer did his job - after all, your initial actions were actually quite suspicious, even if your intent wasn't.. but could have been solved quickly. I'm stopped all the time when the beeps go off / or in Costco (every time) or sometimes just fo rthe hell of it.. Who cares, it takes seconds..
Just my controversial 2 cents...
IMHO - that's where you went wrong. Shop-lifting is a crime that's hard to detect. The old' geezer did his job - after all, your initial actions were actually quite suspicious, even if your intent wasn't.. but could have been solved quickly. I'm stopped all the time when the beeps go off / or in Costco (every time) or sometimes just fo rthe hell of it.. Who cares, it takes seconds..
Just my controversial 2 cents...
Dec 20th 2006, 2:29 pm
#33
Septicity
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 23,762
Re: Stopped for shoplifting (stealing, not trying to lift the shop up ;))
Ignore the neocon apologists in this thread and sue the m-f corporation.
"Probable Cause Steps
To establish a solid base for probable cause, and prevent false arrest claims, there are six universally accepted steps that a merchant should be follow before detaining someone suspected of shoplifting:
1: You must see the shoplifter approach your merchandise
2: You must see the shoplifter select your merchandise
3: You must see the shoplifter conceal, carry away or convert your merchandise
4: You must maintain continuous observation the shoplifter
5: You must see the shoplifter fail to pay for the merchandise
6: You must approach the shoplifter outside of the store "
Source: http://www.crimedoctor.com/shoplifting.htm
"Probable Cause Steps
To establish a solid base for probable cause, and prevent false arrest claims, there are six universally accepted steps that a merchant should be follow before detaining someone suspected of shoplifting:
1: You must see the shoplifter approach your merchandise
2: You must see the shoplifter select your merchandise
3: You must see the shoplifter conceal, carry away or convert your merchandise
4: You must maintain continuous observation the shoplifter
5: You must see the shoplifter fail to pay for the merchandise
6: You must approach the shoplifter outside of the store "
Source: http://www.crimedoctor.com/shoplifting.htm
Dec 20th 2006, 2:32 pm
#34
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Nov 2006
Location: HMP Strangeways
Posts: 5,206
Re: Stopped for shoplifting (stealing, not trying to lift the shop up ;))
Originally Posted by fatbrit
Ignore the neocon apologists in this thread and sue the m-f corporation.
"Probable Cause Steps
To establish a solid base for probable cause, and prevent false arrest claims, there are six universally accepted steps that a merchant should be follow before detaining someone suspected of shoplifting:
1: You must see the shoplifter approach your merchandise
2: You must see the shoplifter select your merchandise
3: You must see the shoplifter conceal, carry away or convert your merchandise
4: You must maintain continuous observation the shoplifter
5: You must see the shoplifter fail to pay for the merchandise
6: You must approach the shoplifter outside of the store "
Source: http://www.crimedoctor.com/shoplifting.htm
"Probable Cause Steps
To establish a solid base for probable cause, and prevent false arrest claims, there are six universally accepted steps that a merchant should be follow before detaining someone suspected of shoplifting:
1: You must see the shoplifter approach your merchandise
2: You must see the shoplifter select your merchandise
3: You must see the shoplifter conceal, carry away or convert your merchandise
4: You must maintain continuous observation the shoplifter
5: You must see the shoplifter fail to pay for the merchandise
6: You must approach the shoplifter outside of the store "
Source: http://www.crimedoctor.com/shoplifting.htm
Dec 20th 2006, 2:38 pm
#35
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 3,338
Re: Stopped for shoplifting (stealing, not trying to lift the shop up ;))
I would think that having gone through the electronic security gate would constitute as going outside the store.
Dec 20th 2006, 3:04 pm
#36
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Nov 2006
Location: HMP Strangeways
Posts: 5,206
Re: Stopped for shoplifting (stealing, not trying to lift the shop up ;))
Originally Posted by Dan725
I would think that having gone through the electronic security gate would constitute as going outside the store.
Dec 20th 2006, 3:14 pm
#37
SUPER MODERATOR
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 88,017
Re: Stopped for shoplifting (stealing, not trying to lift the shop up ;))
Originally Posted by RoadWarriorFromLP
I think this could also apply in a US context. Depending upon the laws of your state, you might have a charge similar to kidnapping here. I would think that if they believed that you shoplifted that they would have the reasonable right to detain you and have you arrested by authorities, but it isn't their job to interrogate you and search you themselves. There are rights to perform a "citizen's arrest", but there are limits to that.
Dec 20th 2006, 3:31 pm
#38
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: Aspen, CO
Posts: 9,845
Re: Stopped for shoplifting (stealing, not trying to lift the shop up ;))
Like others have said I would have just emptied my pockets straight away for them to see that I had done nothing wrong and I would have left the shop very offended but I wouldn't have let the incident escalate..
Now it's up to you how much hassle you want to put up with.. They easier option is to take the gift voucher and apology and forget about it (or tell everybody what happened and put them off using that shop). Suing might look appealing too since you asked a lawyer and you were told that you have a case (you can sue for anything anyway) but it will be a longer process and it will involve more hassle..
The decision is yours.. If you choose to sue keep us updated on the process..
Now it's up to you how much hassle you want to put up with.. They easier option is to take the gift voucher and apology and forget about it (or tell everybody what happened and put them off using that shop). Suing might look appealing too since you asked a lawyer and you were told that you have a case (you can sue for anything anyway) but it will be a longer process and it will involve more hassle..
The decision is yours.. If you choose to sue keep us updated on the process..
Dec 20th 2006, 3:39 pm
#39
Concierge
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 46,383
Re: Stopped for shoplifting (stealing, not trying to lift the shop up ;))
Originally Posted by fatbrit
Ignore the neocon apologists in this thread and sue the m-f corporation.
Indisputable proof that you have been Americanized ... SUE THE M-F you say
FTR, I'm supposedly a yank and have had two occasions to sue the pants off of a corporation/limited liability partnership and didn't. Once when the marble door enclosing the ladies toilet broke off its hinge and hit me in the head and the second time when the DH's doctor prescribed meds for him which punched a hole in his stomach causing him to lose 4 pints of blood even though clearly stated in his records that he had an ulcer.
Do you think they will take away my US citizenship now?
Dec 20th 2006, 4:03 pm
#40
Mr. Grumpy
Joined: Jun 2003
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 3,100
Re: Stopped for shoplifting (stealing, not trying to lift the shop up ;))
Originally Posted by Ray
Now get yourself a carry permit .... and a gun ... you find they will call the sheriff immediately ... with a whole new attitude
i was just thinking that.
unbuttoning your coat to expose the grip of a handgun (legally carried) would defo have brought the popo, and with it more documentation to hold up in court when you sue, which I personally would - cheeky fukkers.
i got pulled aside in walmart of all places getting my groceries - the guy accused me of not paying for the ribeye steak I had in my trolley.
after looking at him in disbelief, i pulled out my receipt to prove my innocence which he grudgingly accepted. I live in a gentryfying neighbourhood, and I can say with some confidence that at least 15 percent of the customers (and staff) in the store at any one time have a rap sheet.... but not me
Dec 20th 2006, 4:41 pm
#41
In the pink
Joined: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 3,324
Re: Stopped for shoplifting (stealing, not trying to lift the shop up ;))
my hubby used to smoke, and he had on a sport shirt with no pocket. he slipped his ciggies into his sock while he went thru the airport. they wanded him, and said "do you have something hidden inside your sock?" In front of everyone, he had to bring out the contraband. not offended, thought it was funny. what's the big deal about emptying yr pockets, whether it be a store, or an airport?
Dec 20th 2006, 4:44 pm
#42
Slight chance of Showers
Joined: May 2006
Location: Norfolk,UK ->Memphis,TN
Posts: 1,158
Re: Stopped for shoplifting (stealing, not trying to lift the shop up ;))
Originally Posted by Rete
Indisputable proof that you have been Americanized ... SUE THE M-F you say
FTR, I'm supposedly a yank and have had two occasions to sue the pants off of a corporation/limited liability partnership and didn't. Once when the marble door enclosing the ladies toilet broke off its hinge and hit me in the head and the second time when the DH's doctor prescribed meds for him which punched a hole in his stomach causing him to lose 4 pints of blood even though clearly stated in his records that he had an ulcer.
Do you think they will take away my US citizenship now?
FTR, I'm supposedly a yank and have had two occasions to sue the pants off of a corporation/limited liability partnership and didn't. Once when the marble door enclosing the ladies toilet broke off its hinge and hit me in the head and the second time when the DH's doctor prescribed meds for him which punched a hole in his stomach causing him to lose 4 pints of blood even though clearly stated in his records that he had an ulcer.
Do you think they will take away my US citizenship now?
Dec 20th 2006, 4:45 pm
#43
Septicity
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 23,762
Re: Stopped for shoplifting (stealing, not trying to lift the shop up ;))
Originally Posted by Mallory
my hubby used to smoke, and he had on a sport shirt with no pocket. he slipped his ciggies into his sock while he went thru the airport. they wanded him, and said "do you have something hidden inside your sock?" In front of everyone, he had to bring out the contraband. not offended, thought it was funny. what's the big deal about emptying yr pockets, whether it be a store, or an airport?
Jesus! These Brits with no idea of freedoms, eh?
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Dec 20th 2006, 4:46 pm
#44
Septic Sprout
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 7,993
Re: Stopped for shoplifting (stealing, not trying to lift the shop up ;))
You're a lot more patient than I. I'd have been inclined to tell the old guy (having shown my receipt for the item in my hand first) not to be so silly and just walk right on out before anyone else even got involved. Does anyone know where that would have got me? (Would they summon assistance and pursue me into the car park? Would they be legally allowed to physically restrain me?)
I once had some silly fool ask me to open my small backpack in the middle of a Target store (in Australia) for no apparent reason. I asked why and she simply said that they were allowed to ask me to do it (apparently there was a sign somewhere in the store that said they reseved the right to inspect shoppers' bags). I asked if she had seen me put anything in it? She dodged the question and simply re-stated her request. I then asked if she'd even seen me remove it from my back or touch the bag in any other way, or had she even noticed that there was a (very) visible lock on the zip that had remained there the whole time I was in the store? Same response.
I finished off by simply saying "no" and walking off. She told me I was now banned from the store!!??
I have no patience at all with this kind of thing. They should employ proper, effective store security measures or not at all.
I once had some silly fool ask me to open my small backpack in the middle of a Target store (in Australia) for no apparent reason. I asked why and she simply said that they were allowed to ask me to do it (apparently there was a sign somewhere in the store that said they reseved the right to inspect shoppers' bags). I asked if she had seen me put anything in it? She dodged the question and simply re-stated her request. I then asked if she'd even seen me remove it from my back or touch the bag in any other way, or had she even noticed that there was a (very) visible lock on the zip that had remained there the whole time I was in the store? Same response.
I finished off by simply saying "no" and walking off. She told me I was now banned from the store!!??
I have no patience at all with this kind of thing. They should employ proper, effective store security measures or not at all.
Dec 20th 2006, 5:55 pm
#45
Concierge
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 46,383
Re: Stopped for shoplifting (stealing, not trying to lift the shop up ;))
Originally Posted by dan_alford
If the blow to the head turned you into a sex fiend it would be worth about $6 million