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Reagan is dead

Reagan is dead

Old Jun 6th 2004, 6:36 pm
  #16  
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Originally posted by Henry George
SO I get slammed for telling some dumbass that it was their fault their cat is dead, but this guy can throw the N word around all day and no body sais shit???!!!! Come on!!!

Duncs is a well respected member of this forum Henry. U have proven yourself to be a slug.
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Old Jun 6th 2004, 7:25 pm
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Originally posted by Duncs
Idiots like you maybe.

Lincoln did what was neccessary to protect the nations very existence. If Lincoln had not been successful the constitution wouldnt even exist. In that sense the temporary losses of freedom were worth it as a trade off to save the nation.

I suppose for you though he cant be forgiven for freeing those 'uppity niggers'?
Actually Duncs, for as smart as you proclaim yourself to be I am amazed at your lack of knowledge on the Civil War. The last thing it was about was slavery- in fact as recently as 1860 Lincoln repeated that he would not interfere with slavery in the south.
The South started the secession movement over economic issues- specifically protectionist tariffs on southern goods sold north, and taxes on Northern goods sold in the South. In essence, Lincoln was paying back the big northern industrialists for supporting him.

As for abolishing slavery, I believe it should have never existed- it was an abhorrent institution. Lincoln did well by abolishing it, but he did it as a punitive action not from altruism.

(edited for glaring typos )

Last edited by ironporer; Jun 6th 2004 at 8:28 pm.
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Old Jun 6th 2004, 7:37 pm
  #18  
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Originally posted by ironporer
Actually Duncs, for as smart as you proclaim yourself to be I am amazed at your lack of knowledge on the Cicil War.
I, for one, have never heard of the Cicil War.

Shame about Reagan - although agree that 93 is a pretty good age.
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Old Jun 6th 2004, 8:44 pm
  #19  
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Originally posted by ironporer
Actually Duncs, for as smart as you proclaim yourself to be I am amazed at your lack of knowledge on the Cicil War. The last thing it was about was slavery- in fact as recently as 1860 Lincoln repeated that he would not interfere with slavery in the south.
The South started the secession movement over economic issues- specifically protectionist tariffs on southern goods sold north, and taxes on Northern goods sold in the South. In essence, Lincoln was paying back the big northern industrialists for supporting him.
I admit i know nothing about the Cicil War!

On the Civil war however, whilst i am no Shelby Foote, i have a passing knowledge.

Lincolns position on slavery was clear enough from his early speeches(e.g. Peoria, Illinois, In Reply to Senator Douglas,16 October 1854). The fact that he wasnt able to politically act at an earlier stage was a political reality, not a preference. When he did act he did it at the time when the Southern states still hoped the european powers might assist them and Lincolns brilliant use of a limited (and unconstitutional) emancipation was genius, in that it entirely removed any prospect of european interference, effectively winning the war for the north. It just took time for the military reality to catch up to the political one. This political skill is why he was such a great president (IMHO the greatest).

The war may not have started out as being officially about slavery but that was the underlying issue. The economic factors were based upon the fact that the souths ruling classes would be economically ruined by the ending of slavery. The main conflict between north and south had its roots in the "peculiar institution" and the issue of expansion of slavery into new territories. The ruling whites needed slavery to sustain their own economic power as the cotton industry would have been entirely uncompetitive without cheap/free slave labor. The war was absolutely about slavery and its supporting social structure, whatever economic side issues it generated.

[i]As for abolishing slavery, I believe it should have never existed- it was an abhorrant institution. Lincold did well by abolishing it, but he did it as a punitive action not from altruisim.
Agreed. Ironically enough the British empire declared slavery illegal in all its colonies in 1776. Just too late for the blacks in America who had to wait another 90 odd years.

Last edited by Duncs; Jun 6th 2004 at 8:59 pm.
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Old Jun 6th 2004, 8:52 pm
  #20  
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Originally posted by doctor scrumpy
Duncs is a well respected member of this forum Henry. U have proven yourself to be a slug.
Kind of you to say so.

My use of the N word was entirely satirical and was aimed at Ironporer. I did not intend offence to any black readers and hopefully that was recognised and that i meant it not to demonstrate racism on my part but merely to critcise Ironporer(although unfairly according to his latest post, mind you he is still up his arse on the historical reasons for the civil, or cicil as he prefers, war).

Its all a bit tangential to Reagan though. On that point for anyone who wants a different overview of the Reagan years, (including the south american war crimes and human rights abuses) than the current media deification try:

http://billmon.org/archives/001511.html
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Old Jun 6th 2004, 11:05 pm
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Originally posted by ironporer
The last thing it was about was slavery- in fact as recently as 1860 Lincoln repeated that he would not interfere with slavery in the south.
The South started the secession movement over economic issues- specifically protectionist tariffs on southern goods sold north, and taxes on Northern goods sold in the South. In essence, Lincoln was paying back the big northern industrialists for supporting him.

Ahem.
If you actually read the declarations of secession issued by the various confederate states it's pretty clear what the key issue was. Here's what South Carolina, Mississippi and Texas had to say:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/csa/scarsec.htm

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/csa/missec.htm

http://www.civil-war.net/pages/texas_declaration.asp

If slavery was the last thing the war was about, why do they bang on about that and nothing else?

eg Mississippi: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world."
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Old Jun 7th 2004, 1:49 am
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Originally posted by elfman
If slavery was the last thing the war was about, why do they bang on about that and nothing else?
I wouldn't say "nothing else". The SC declaration talks at length about the principle of the individual states (including South Carolina) being "free, sovereign and independent" before attacking the Northern states for opposing slavery.

As a decentralist and anti-racist, the ideal solution for me would have been if the South had won the Civil War, but a free, sovereign and independent South Carolina (and other states) had abolished slavery because they wanted to, not because Washington forced them to.

I'm not saying that's what would have happened, just what I'd like to have happened.
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Old Jun 7th 2004, 3:25 am
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Old Jun 7th 2004, 1:34 pm
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Originally posted by doctor scrumpy
He did ? As far as I recall he nearly bankrupted the USA with his fiscal policies. A national debt of over a trillion dollars. Still compared to bush snr & junior he seemed a Einstien !

its staggering, really, I was never a Reagan fan, but this weekend found myself admiring the man's eloquence and accountability....

His death has certainly put into perspective how far down the drain the Republican Party, the Presidency, and US democracy has slipped...
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Old Jun 7th 2004, 2:14 pm
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Although Reagan had his faults and will not be placed in the same category of great U.S. presidents such as Washington, Lincoln, and TR, he will always be recognized for changing the world for the better, as oppossed to someone like Bill Clinton who history will eventually lump in with Millard Fillmore and Franklin Pierce because their presidencies were largely unremarkable.

Reagan had a proactive administration and has left a mostly positive legacy. Europe greatly benefited from him staring down the Soviet Union.

Just heard this - my office is closing Friday in honor of Reagan. I do plan on going to see him lying in state in the Rotunda Wednesday, although I will admit that it is more out of curiosity than respect.
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Old Jun 7th 2004, 2:47 pm
  #26  
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Believe it or not I mean no offense by sending this post. It’s merely an observation.

Originally posted by Henry George
SO I get slammed for telling some dumbass that it was their fault their cat is dead, but this guy can throw the N word around all day and no body sais shit???!!!! Come on!!!

Amazing what starting and ending quotation marks mean to some people who went beyond watching Fox News. Read duncs' post again and this time pay attention to quotation marks. What you think he said in his post has **** all to do with what he actually said, either. Not only Grammar, you must have skipped Reading Comprehension in the 2nd grade as well. (Yes, I meant offense on the last one. I can't ignore idiots sometimes.)

Last edited by manc1976; Jun 7th 2004 at 6:37 pm.
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Old Jun 7th 2004, 3:56 pm
  #27  
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The first thing I thought reading Dunc's post was "this is a cut & paste" job. Not intelligent to come up with his own opinion apparently.
 
Old Jun 7th 2004, 4:04 pm
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Originally posted by Oggie Oi!
Although Reagan had his faults and will not be placed in the same category of great U.S. presidents such as Washington, Lincoln, and TR, he will always be recognized for changing the world for the better, as oppossed to someone like Bill Clinton who history will eventually lump in with Millard Fillmore and Franklin Pierce because their presidencies were largely unremarkable.

Reagan had a proactive administration and has left a mostly positive legacy. Europe greatly benefited from him staring down the Soviet Union.

Just heard this - my office is closing Friday in honor of Reagan. I do plan on going to see him lying in state in the Rotunda Wednesday, although I will admit that it is more out of curiosity than respect.

Let's keep the man's actions in perspective, too. He backed and funded some of the world's most horrendous and murderous regimes in East Timor (remember the massacres?), in El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala and Nicaragua (remember the use of drug money to get arms from Iran to the contras - Ollie North et al?).
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Old Jun 7th 2004, 4:10 pm
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Originally posted by Lion in Winter
(remember the use of drug money to get arms from Iran to the contras - Ollie North et al?).
Yes, but I don't think now is the appropriate time to be bringing them up. Let the man have his eulogies for now. I find it a little distasteful when people start dishing the dirt on someone who is barely cold (or "doing a Lynda Lee Potter", as I call it, as she is the leading expert in the poison-pen obituary).
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Old Jun 7th 2004, 4:21 pm
  #30  
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