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Quiet disclosure of FBAR

Quiet disclosure of FBAR

Old May 2nd 2011, 1:03 pm
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Default Re: Where to list spouse's name?

Originally Posted by Dazey View Post
I need to borrow some more of your experience on this board.

Where do I list the spouse's name and SSN on the FBAR when filing a joint account? I know that I write "(spouse)" on line 26, but you are also supposed to put the names and Social Security Number of the joint owners, but I only see spaces to put that information for the principal owner.
You would list your spouses info (name, SSN, address etc.) in question 25-33 of Part Three of the FBAR. You have to repeat filling out these entries (25-33) for each joint account you own, as there is a full separate listing for each. Note that your spouse is the "principal joint owner," so if you have a joint account with your spouse, you would answer "1" to question 24 (Number of joint owners.) On line 26, you would write "Jones (spouse)" .. if your spouse's family name is Jones, and John if your spouse's first name is John. So again, you are the "owner" and your spouse is the "principal joint owner."

Also, you would both sign in question 44 on page one of the form.
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Old May 2nd 2011, 4:01 pm
  #152  
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Default Re: Where to list spouse's name?

Originally Posted by robin1234 View Post
You would list your spouses info (name, SSN, address etc.) in question 25-33 of Part Three of the FBAR. You have to repeat filling out these entries (25-33) for each joint account you own, as there is a full separate listing for each. Note that your spouse is the "principal joint owner," so if you have a joint account with your spouse, you would answer "1" to question 24 (Number of joint owners.) On line 26, you would write "Jones (spouse)" .. if your spouse's family name is Jones, and John if your spouse's first name is John. So again, you are the "owner" and your spouse is the "principal joint owner."

Also, you would both sign in question 44 on page one of the form.
Thank you so much for taking the time to explain everything!

I had Turbotax generate this form while working on taxes, and for some reason it listed my husband's info in questions 25-33, even though he is the primary filer listed in Part 1 (I likely did something wrong; when I filled out this form right after doing taxes I was really just doing it as a draft to see what information the form required me to gather). So when 27 asks for the first name of the principal joint owner, it listed my husband instead of me, and I thought that made sense as I thought it was referring to him as the principal joint owner as I don't work here and he does, so he's principal because he's the one knocking out that rent (as we like to say). But my name and SSN appeared nowhere. Now I get it, lol.
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Old May 6th 2011, 12:55 pm
  #153  
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Default New FBAR form

Sorry to be back again, but I just saw there is a new FBAR form. And it doesn't seem to have a listing for joint accounts at all.

Rules on the new form say:

"Spouses may file a single FBAR if the foreign account is jointly owned, the FBAR is timely filed by one spouse and both spouses sign the FBAR. Otherwise, separate FBARs must be filed by both spouses."

So, I guess we both sign but my name and SSN don't go on the form now? And then we'd have to file separate back forms? Which means if penalties are levied, we each get the fines separately?! This is making me feel quite ill as I have 3 years of back forms to file once I get the 2010 one out of the way.

And here's the form.
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Old May 6th 2011, 3:40 pm
  #154  
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Default Re: New FBAR form

Originally Posted by Dazey View Post
Sorry to be back again, but I just saw there is a new FBAR form. And it doesn't seem to have a listing for joint accounts at all.

Rules on the new form say:

"Spouses may file a single FBAR if the foreign account is jointly owned, the FBAR is timely filed by one spouse and both spouses sign the FBAR. Otherwise, separate FBARs must be filed by both spouses."

So, I guess we both sign but my name and SSN don't go on the form now? And then we'd have to file separate back forms? Which means if penalties are levied, we each get the fines separately?! This is making me feel quite ill as I have 3 years of back forms to file once I get the 2010 one out of the way.

And here's the form.
Yes, I see from the form that you link to that it was revised in March 2011. I submitted mine in March so I now don't know whether I was using this version of the form or the earlier one... Look again at the form, though. Page 3 is "Part 3; Information on Financial Accounts Held Jointly." The information about the spouse (the "principal joint owner") is entered in line 25-33 of each block for each account in Part 3.

I think I will print of a blank copy of this newly-revised form and compare it to the previous version. At first glance, I don't see any differences.
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Old May 6th 2011, 8:04 pm
  #155  
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Default Re: New FBAR form

Originally Posted by robin1234 View Post
Yes, I see from the form that you link to that it was revised in March 2011. I submitted mine in March so I now don't know whether I was using this version of the form or the earlier one... Look again at the form, though. Page 3 is "Part 3; Information on Financial Accounts Held Jointly." The information about the spouse (the "principal joint owner") is entered in line 25-33 of each block for each account in Part 3.

I think I will print of a blank copy of this newly-revised form and compare it to the previous version. At first glance, I don't see any differences.
You're right, thanks for pointing that out. I spent this afternoon pouring over pages of bank statements from three accounts trying to find the highest totals. And then had to do so online, too, for a few months for which I didn't have pages. I was getting a bit loopy by the time I found out there was a new form.
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Old May 30th 2011, 1:18 pm
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Default Re: Quiet disclosure of FBAR

Does anyone know if you mail past-due FBARs to the same address you do regular FBARs? Also, is there a certain individual or job title to whom I should address the accompanying letter?

I've got my three years of past-due forms ready and am nervously working on my letter to accompany them now, will mail later this week. I'm not sure yet if I'll use Airsure with Royal Mail or Fedex, and I know that there is a different address for forms sent by courier. But I don't know if those addresses change if you've got late forms?

Also, in the letter to the IRS, do you need to actually request a waiver of any and all penalties for late submission? I was just going to include the basic information (we didn't know we had to file an FBAR, we did file tax returns and list interest income, etc), and not mention penalties at all. But I just saw something on a forum stating you should ask for a waiver, it's the first time I'd seen that.

Last edited by Dazey; May 30th 2011 at 2:07 pm.
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Old Jun 11th 2011, 7:06 pm
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Default Re: Quiet disclosure of FBAR

Anyone know the real story on FBAR's and SIPP's/Personal Pensions?

I asked in another thread: http://britishexpats.com/forum/showp...&postcount=125 and got the answer: '2. No, a UK pension is covered under the US/UK double tax treaty.'

Seems to me these ARE 'foreign financial accounts', even if they are not taxable under the treaty (and that's another unresolved question). I doubt if the tax treaty covers reporting requirements.

I also found this: 'As a final note, many personal pensions, such as SIPPs, are considered to be foreign financial accounts, for which FBAR reportings are required.', here: http://www.buzzacott.co.uk/uploads/i...ril%202010.pdf
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Old Jun 11th 2011, 11:58 pm
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Default Re: Quiet disclosure of FBAR

Originally Posted by Prog1 View Post
Anyone know the real story on FBAR's and SIPP's/Personal Pensions?

I asked in another thread: http://britishexpats.com/forum/showp...&postcount=125 and got the answer: '2. No, a UK pension is covered under the US/UK double tax treaty.'

Seems to me these ARE 'foreign financial accounts', even if they are not taxable under the treaty (and that's another unresolved question). I doubt if the tax treaty covers reporting requirements.

I also found this: 'As a final note, many personal pensions, such as SIPPs, are considered to be foreign financial accounts, for which FBAR reportings are required.', here: http://www.buzzacott.co.uk/uploads/i...ril%202010.pdf
That was then. 2 years on and they are included now. Fund Growth, which is a separate issue, is covered under the tax treaty though if, typically, unit trusts are held then these will be subject to IRS PFIC rules on annual income and gains and further tax advice may be required as these funds do not produce the correct reporting format for IRS purposes.
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Old Jun 12th 2011, 12:56 am
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Default Re: Quiet disclosure of FBAR

Originally Posted by im9907620 View Post
That was then. 2 years on and they are included now. Fund Growth, which is a separate issue, is covered under the tax treaty though if, typically, unit trusts are held then these will be subject to IRS PFIC rules on annual income and gains and further tax advice may be required as these funds do not produce the correct reporting format for IRS purposes.
If you have a US retirement fund it's far easier. As I have no UK tax liability I don't have to worry about HMRC yet. However if I move back to the UK all I'll have to do is to declare my US based 401k, 403b, IRA etc and invoke the tax treaty so that they remain tax deferred until I start to make withdrawals which will be income for both UK and US tax purposes.

It seems that the IRS makes if far more difficult for a US citizen to have a UK pension than the UK makes it for a UK citizen to have a US retirement fund.

Does the US treat UK final salary pension funds any more easily that UK personal pension funds?
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Old Jun 12th 2011, 8:08 am
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Default Re: Quiet disclosure of FBAR

Originally Posted by nun View Post
If you have a US retirement fund it's far easier. As I have no UK tax liability I don't have to worry about HMRC yet. However if I move back to the UK all I'll have to do is to declare my US based 401k, 403b, IRA etc and invoke the tax treaty so that they remain tax deferred until I start to make withdrawals which will be income for both UK and US tax purposes.

It seems that the IRS makes if far more difficult for a US citizen to have a UK pension than the UK makes it for a UK citizen to have a US retirement fund.

Does the US treat UK final salary pension funds any more easily that UK personal pension funds?
Are you talking about reporting funds from which you receive pension payments, or just your pension plan at work even though you're years from payouts?
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Old Jun 12th 2011, 1:43 pm
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Default Re: Quiet disclosure of FBAR

Originally Posted by Dazey View Post
Are you talking about reporting funds from which you receive pension payments, or just your pension plan at work even though you're years from payouts?
I have US based retirement plans and when I move back to the UK I'll report those to HMRC and invoke the treaty so they won't be taxed. When I start taking money from them I'll have to pay income tax on the withdrawals....except on ROTH withdrawals as they are tax free in US and UK. This seems to be a far simpler situation than for dealing with the tax on UK based retirement accounts. Why is this?
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Old Jun 14th 2011, 12:11 pm
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Default Re: Quiet disclosure of FBAR

we're living outside the us. my husband is an us citizen. i'm not, i just have a ssn number, but don't file taxes in the us anymore.

reporting foreign bank accounts:

so he fills out the form for himself, using his taxpayer id under item 3-4 - check appropriate id number.

but how do we declare the joint accounts? part III item 25: taxpayer id number of principal joint owner (that's me) - do i have to put in any information?

and the same for part IV - financial account where filer has signature authority but no financial interest: he has signature authority over my accounts. also the question: what to write in item 35 - taxpayer id number?

thanks!
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Old Jun 15th 2011, 6:50 am
  #163  
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Default Re: Quiet disclosure of FBAR

does anyone have an answer to my question?

thanks for your help!!!
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Old Jun 15th 2011, 7:33 am
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Default Re: Quiet disclosure of FBAR

Originally Posted by nyc123 View Post
does anyone have an answer to my question?

thanks for your help!!!
I don't know the answer, but you can email FBAR questions to:

[email protected]

They may give you a useful answer (or not; I addressed a question to them and got an answer that didn't answer quite clearly and left out a couple of points I'd asked, but it was somewhat helpful. You might get lucky -- make your question clear and brief).
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Old Jun 15th 2011, 8:09 am
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Default Re: Quiet disclosure of FBAR

thanks for the link!

but, since i don't have that much time left to file, i thought on this forum a lot of other people must have encountered the same problem.
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