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Originally posted by matt_in_philly <<snip>> In addition to turning the discussion into a pissing contest, "I'm not educated but I make more than you" type of argument is total non-sense and sounds childish in tone. A drug dealer or a pimp who didn't go any further than 6th grade makes more than you do. So, what's your point? To believe that there is nothing wrong with the fact that the average recent university graduate salary is only $24000 but it is perfectly fine to pay 6 figures to a high school dropout/graduate is the most ridiculous idea since the toilet tank aquarium. I can understand why a person who worked at the same factory for 20 years, went to school after work or something and finally (well deserved BTW) got promoted, should make more than a brand-spanking-new MIT educated engineer. However, the other examples are just laughable. My calendar says 2004 but I think that some people are stuck with their grandparents' vintage calendars. When Java first appeared, anybody with Java qualifications and experience could command a high salary (just using Java as an example). A year or two later, those in IT plus those with an eye to getting in the field are acquring the certification and experience. This leads to a glut of those with the qualifications and it comes to a point that employers can pick and choose who they hire. So, the ball's gone from one side of the court to the other. i.e in the early days, it was the employee who had the upper hand and could make a ridiculous salary for highly desirable and scarce skills. Those days are long gone now since there are so many with the qualifications and varying degrees of experience. In general, there are some professionals around (let's just stick to the US) that don't have a batchelor's at all, not in any subject. Such people probably have to struggle to acquire skills that would've been learnt at university as well as get on with the job. It's a risk the employer takes when hiring such a person. It's more than just giving a less than formally educated person a break. It's the employer seeing the potential in the person. To take it further, it's like British educated people trying to get a job. How many of us have had trouble finding any kind of work whilst holding a batchelors' degree. It's the same kind of problem. Perception that we're not good enough for the simply for holding a foreign academic qualification. That's my 5 cents... |
Originally posted by matt_in_philly I used to feel sorry for the IT people who were desperately trying to find any kind of job after being laid off from a $150000 (or whatever) a year job. However, I have to admit that after reading some posts here, I don't think I'll feel the same again. Overrated, over employed, overpaid yet so eager to make anti-education propaganda and will be seen reaching "over" to stock the shelves at Wal-Mart sooner or later (or Tesco's for that matter). Not there is anything wrong with working at Wally World but you know what I mean anyway. In 21st century, paying some employees 6 figures and promoting them all the way up without even expecting them to have some sort of a degree (Community College Degree, ITT Tech Degree, Harvard Degree or Wal-Mart Degree etc.) is just plain ridiculous. In addition to turning the discussion into a pissing contest, "I'm not educated but I make more than you" type of argument is total non-sense and sounds childish in tone. A drug dealer or a pimp who didn't go any further than 6th grade makes more than you do. So, what's your point? To believe that there is nothing wrong with the fact that the average recent university graduate salary is only $24000 but it is perfectly fine to pay 6 figures to a high school dropout/graduate is the most ridiculous idea since the toilet tank aquarium. I can understand why a person who worked at the same factory for 20 years, went to school after work or something and finally (well deserved BTW) got promoted, should make more than a brand-spanking-new MIT educated engineer. However, the other examples are just laughable. My calendar says 2004 but I think that some people are stuck with their grandparents' vintage calendars. Obsession with academic exam results at the root of failed education policy Academic exam results are one of the poorest indicators of potential. Many of the world's most successful people left school with few, and sometimes no, qualifications. These include Albert Einstein (scientist), Soichira Honda (founder of Honda Motor Corporation), Ray Kroc (founder of MacDonalds), Pete Waterman (multi-millionaire record producer), Richard Branson (multimillionaire entrepreneur and inspiration), Philip Green (self-made millionaire businessman and CEO of BHS [British Home Stores]) etc. It could even be said that a surfeit of academic qualifications might condemn one to a life of mediocrity. As Mark Twain said, "I never let my schooling interfere with my education". |
Effi - As I mentioned earlier.. my degree got me a foot in the door... it didn't teach me anything. The only reason I do the job I do.. is because I love it, it was a hobby/obsession before my degree and it became my life afterwards.
there is definitely something in what you are saying, I know people who have degrees, PhD's, more academic papers published that you would believe... but give them a real world problem, an actual application of their knowledge and the walls of inteligence (cough!) crumble. I am one of those people who went to Uni because I didn't know what to do, and while at uni I just continued with my hobby.. the degree (as mentioned earlier) gave me a foot in the door and was a pain ass, it interfered with my learning the tricks of my trade. so whilst I do use some high level math, most of what I do was self taught and borne of bedroom shenanigans when I should have been working on my tutorials. |
Originally posted by USBound Effi - As I mentioned earlier.. my degree got me a foot in the door... it didn't teach me anything. The only reason I do the job I do.. is because I love it, it was a hobby/obsession before my degree and it became my life afterwards. there is definitely something in what you are saying, I know people who have degrees, PhD's, more academic papers published that you would believe... but give them a real world problem, an actual application of their knowledge and the walls of inteligence (cough!) crumble. I am one of those people who went to Uni because I didn't know what to do, and while at uni I just continued with my hobby.. the degree (as mentioned earlier) gave me a foot in the door and was a pain ass, it interfered with my learning the tricks of my trade. so whilst I do use some high level math, most of what I do was self taught and borne of bedroom shenanigans when I should have been working on my tutorials. I have worked for people with Phds and most of them were the dumbest people I have ever met. They had absolutely no common sense and unless they were doing what they were trained/studied to do, they were lost. Most of them could not even switch on their computers, yet these were people who wrote and had published, high level papers, owned patents etc. I sometimes wish I were more educated and had made the effort to go back to school and get some kind of qualification. I did actually do one course in english language and managed to get a measly 'O' level when I was 40ish. Being a military wife for 25 years though robbed me of the chance. We moved on average every 2 years, and the rest of the time I was just so busy trying to earn a living and pay bills, I did not have time for anything else. I have worked non stop (until recently) since I left school at 15 and am now 52, and I have to say I am extremely happy with my lot in life. Having no qualifications has not robbed me of being able to do whatever kind of job I have gone after over the years. Some of the jobs I have had came as a result of just getting my foot in the door in a menial role. People obviously recognised something and I did not remain in the menial positions for very long. I do understand the need for the elusive piece of paper as I call it, especially here in the US where everyone seems to be obsessed with having some kind of qualification. Like I said though, it has not held me or my husband back from earning an extremely good living. |
I make computer games, low level engine programmer.
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I don't think that anyone without a degree is a slacker. For many, the opportunity for further education was not available when they left school. I know when I was 17 and finishing HS it was imperative that I go and get a job. My parents could barely afford to keep the 4 kids they had, putting one of us thru tertiary education was out of the question. I know now there were options available, but at that time I wasn't even shown by the school how to apply to go to University. I was a girl so it was assumed that learning to type and work in an office was good enough for me. I did my degree as a mature student, I had just passed my 39th birthday when I took my last exam. Without a doubt I am glad that I did it, because it did give me some kind of personal validation, improved my self confidence and self worth. I know it is only a piece of paper, but now that I am back in the job market it has made a difference.
As to that piece of paper being an indication of intelligence, that I am not convinced of. Some of the stuff I did I am sure a trained monkey could have learnt. Also with regards to working with those with multiple qualifications, well we all have worked with some who have paper qualifications coming out of the wazoo but are totally incapable of getting by in the work environment. I do think that the US is obsessed with one having that piece of paper. I always think that graduating HS outside the US is equal to a couple of years of US college. Having a college degree from outside the US is like a US masters. I did some courses in the US at UCSD which is supposed to be a top 50 Uni and what a joke. If you failed those you had not right to be studying. |
There is a huge emphasis on having a degree in the US and I know that it's definitely one factor that's holding me back over here that never did in the UK.
In my opinion it remains questionable the value of a piece of paper to prove anyone's ability to do any kind of job. I work with a number of people that have US degrees and find them all to be conscientious, accurate and reasonably hard working. The thing they do lack though, is imagination, creativity and the ability to question the processes that they follow each day, even when they are faced with the same problems. Is this the result of further education in the US?? Not sure if it's that or the fear of seeming insubbordinate, I know that with my background in the UK I can be controversial and raise a few eyebrows with some of the questions I ask over here! |
Originally posted by RoB1833 There is a huge emphasis on having a degree in the US and I know that it's definitely one factor that's holding me back over here that never did in the UK. In my opinion it remains questionable the value of a piece of paper to prove anyone's ability to do any kind of job. I work with a number of people that have US degrees and find them all to be conscientious, accurate and reasonably hard working. The thing they do lack though, is imagination, creativity and the ability to question the processes that they follow each day, even when they are faced with the same problems. Is this the result of further education in the US?? Not sure if it's that or the fear of seeming insubbordinate, I know that with my background in the UK I can be controversial and raise a few eyebrows with some of the questions I ask over here! |
Originally posted by Vicky88 I don't think that anyone without a degree is a slacker. For many, the opportunity for further education was not available when they left school. I know when I was 17 and finishing HS it was imperative that I go and get a job. My parents could barely afford to keep the 4 kids they had, putting one of us thru tertiary education was out of the question. I know now there were options available, but at that time I wasn't even shown by the school how to apply to go to University. I was a girl so it was assumed that learning to type and work in an office was good enough for me. I did my degree as a mature student, I had just passed my 39th birthday when I took my last exam. Without a doubt I am glad that I did it, because it did give me some kind of personal validation, improved my self confidence and self worth. I know it is only a piece of paper, but now that I am back in the job market it has made a difference. As to that piece of paper being an indication of intelligence, that I am not convinced of. Some of the stuff I did I am sure a trained monkey could have learnt. Also with regards to working with those with multiple qualifications, well we all have worked with some who have paper qualifications coming out of the wazoo but are totally incapable of getting by in the work environment. I do think that the US is obsessed with one having that piece of paper. I always think that graduating HS outside the US is equal to a couple of years of US college. Having a college degree from outside the US is like a US masters. I did some courses in the US at UCSD which is supposed to be a top 50 Uni and what a joke. If you failed those you had not right to be studying. |
Re: Qualifications?
Originally posted by effi Do you actually have a job, or do you just obsess all day about what qualifications you possess? I guess you take your little pieces of paper out every so often and drool over them and pat yourself on the back for being such a smart arse. Oops, sorry, just a JOKE. I don't see that there's any argument to have here. You and your husband have done extremely well without having degrees. You're also 20 years older than me, and your experiences have been very different to mine. There is no way I could have achived what I have now without my degrees. You can call them "elusive bits of paper" all you like, but it simply isn't possible to do what I am doing without a degree at the very least. That's not the case for all jobs, but neither is it true that you can do any job with sufficient hard work and experience. I'm not trying to belittle anyone who has achieved a great career with little formal education - my hat is off to anyone who can do so - I'm just saying that degrees are a necessity for many jobs now. |
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Originally posted by effi Do you want to tell the following people that they are dumasses? Obsession with academic exam results at the root of failed education policy Academic exam results are one of the poorest indicators of potential. Many of the world's most successful people left school with few, and sometimes no, qualifications. These include Albert Einstein (scientist), Soichira Honda (founder of Honda Motor Corporation), Ray Kroc (founder of MacDonalds), Pete Waterman (multi-millionaire record producer), Richard Branson (multimillionaire entrepreneur and inspiration), Philip Green (self-made millionaire businessman and CEO of BHS [British Home Stores]) etc. It could even be said that a surfeit of academic qualifications might condemn one to a life of mediocrity. As Mark Twain said, "I never let my schooling interfere with my education". First of all, let me tell you that I did not call anybody "dumb-ass". Second of all... When you copy a text from a website and later paste it on another forum, you should check the bullets, paragraph and the format first. Otherwise it may get distorted or bullets wouldn't appear or paragraphs would look so bad etc that somebody would realize that the post was ripped. When I read this post of yours I very much doubted they would be your own words as I was so sure that you were not kind of a person who would actually read anything serious. Paragraphs etc helped as well. So, I wanted to find out where you ripped it. And the winner is... http://www.bullyonline.org/schoolbully/truancy.htm Go to the page and scroll down to see where you ripped your message from. Your post (except the "dumass" sentence) is ripped from http://www.bullyonline.org/schoolbully/truancy.htm I guess you couldn't find anything other than that site to rip from. Very sad. Even when you read the original text it doesn't make any sense at all. For example, technically Einstein didn't have a degree or anything but he didn't pull all the formulas out of his butt, either. He was educated by the best scientists of his time and later he taught in the universities, too. You cannot think of education and Einstein separately. They are like peas and carrots. Basically when you're laying bricks on the side of the road and whistling at a girl in a mini-skirt, you don't suddenly say " Eureka!!! E = MC² " and unofficially start a new age in the history. By the way ... 1. Yes, Richard Branson is a "dumb-ass� indeed, at least in my book. He's a typical white-collar criminal. Sooner or later he will be persecuted for his dodgy dealings during the privatization of the Virgin Group. Well, at least people will call him a thief on the street one day. Too bad your example happens to be a thief whose business practices were widely discussed in my classroom as a part of the MBA program. And they say school doesn’t teach you anything. Blah. 2. Ray Kroc was not the founder of McDonalds. He was just a sleazy salesman who lucked out after buying the McDonald’s restaurants that were already there. I'm sorry to break it to you but when you go to school they teach you a lot about the famous corporations of the world etc. 3. Never heard of Philip Green and the Japanese fellow. But I know that Honda first came out in 1940s. So, in 2004 why would anybody name him as an example of undereducated but successful people? It was ages ago. Different times blah blah blah … What about Edison? He’s a better example. The attention deficit order etc. 4. Waterman is a musician who was in the right place at the right time. Tupac had a share in Death Row. So technically he was a "multi-millionaire record producer", too. However, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. But, that's a different story. Come on! Who are you going to name next, Biggie Small? Originally posted by effi Do you want to tell the following people that they are dumasses? |
Re: Qualifications?
Originally posted by hhmaker However, I can earn more in a year than you can in a lifetime. "my Dad is bigger than yours" idiot :D |
Re: Qualifications?
Originally posted by hhmaker However, I can earn more in a year than you can in a lifetime. Originally posted by Chopper-Chris are you 12? because you sound like it "my Dad is bigger than yours" idiot :D hhmaker, if you're going to get into a pissing match over salary and job title, it's best to be sure that you're actually better paid and more senior than the people you're pissing on. By the way, does your bank know you run around waving your CIO position and salary in people's faces like that, just in order to "win" a discussion of further education? |
Re: Qualifications?
Originally posted by dbj1000 Couldn't agree more Chris. It's pitiful that such a petty little man can reach such a position within a company, isn't it? hhmaker, if you're going to get into a pissing match over salary and job title, it's best to be sure that you're actually better paid and more senior than the people you're pissing on. It makes me wonder whether hhmaker really is really employed in the job and at the salary that he claims. |
Originally posted by matt_in_philly Ok Madam, I’ll play. First of all, let me tell you that I did not call anybody "dumb-ass". Second of all... When you copy a text from a website and later paste it on another forum, you should check the bullets, paragraph and the format first. Otherwise it may get distorted or bullets wouldn't appear or paragraphs would look so bad etc that somebody would realize that the post was ripped. When I read this post of yours I very much doubted they would be your own words as I was so sure that you were not kind of a person who would actually read anything serious. Paragraphs etc helped as well. So, I wanted to find out where you ripped it. And the winner is... http://www.bullyonline.org/schoolbully/truancy.htm Go to the page and scroll down to see where you ripped your message from. Your post (except the "dumass" sentence) is ripped from http://www.bullyonline.org/schoolbully/truancy.htm I guess you couldn't find anything other than that site to rip from. Very sad. Even when you read the original text it doesn't make any sense at all. For example, technically Einstein didn't have a degree or anything but he didn't pull all the formulas out of his butt, either. He was educated by the best scientists of his time and later he taught in the universities, too. You cannot think of education and Einstein separately. They are like peas and carrots. Basically when you're laying bricks on the side of the road and whistling at a girl in a mini-skirt, you don't suddenly say " Eureka!!! E = MC² " and unofficially start a new age in the history. By the way ... 1. Yes, Richard Branson is a "dumb-ass� indeed, at least in my book. He's a typical white-collar criminal. Sooner or later he will be persecuted for his dodgy dealings during the privatization of the Virgin Group. Well, at least people will call him a thief on the street one day. Too bad your example happens to be a thief whose business practices were widely discussed in my classroom as a part of the MBA program. And they say school doesn’t teach you anything. Blah. 2. Ray Kroc was not the founder of McDonalds. He was just a sleazy salesman who lucked out after buying the McDonald’s restaurants that were already there. I'm sorry to break it to you but when you go to school they teach you a lot about the famous corporations of the world etc. 3. Never heard of Philip Green and the Japanese fellow. But I know that Honda first came out in 1940s. So, in 2004 why would anybody name him as an example of undereducated but successful people? It was ages ago. Different times blah blah blah … What about Edison? He’s a better example. The attention deficit order etc. 4. Waterman is a musician who was in the right place at the right time. Tupac had a share in Death Row. So technically he was a "multi-millionaire record producer", too. However, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. But, that's a different story. Come on! Who are you going to name next, Biggie Small? This is the only sentence in the entire post that is actually yours. Congratulations. |
Re: Qualifications?
Originally posted by dbj1000 Effi, I'm genuinely sorry. Re-reading the thread, my "joke" came across as pretty aggressive, and that's not how I meant it at all. I don't see that there's any argument to have here. You and your husband have done extremely well without having degrees. You're also 20 years older than me, and your experiences have been very different to mine. There is no way I could have achived what I have now without my degrees. You can call them "elusive bits of paper" all you like, but it simply isn't possible to do what I am doing without a degree at the very least. That's not the case for all jobs, but neither is it true that you can do any job with sufficient hard work and experience. I'm not trying to belittle anyone who has achieved a great career with little formal education - my hat is off to anyone who can do so - I'm just saying that degrees are a necessity for many jobs now. I left school in 1967 and there was no advice on where to go to find out how to get further education. We were just turned loose. I came from a very small place in Scotland, only about 300 or so people in the village, so it was either go and work in the local factory or sweet shop. Not much of a choice. You make the best of what you have though, which we did. I have enjoyed sparring with you. I am not the brain of Britain as you have probably surmised, but I am not altogether a dumbass either. I hope to meet you again. |
I wrote a different message but you know what, forget it. It turns out you're just an ignorant person. I thought that we could discuss things in a civilized manner but obviously that's too much for you.
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Originally posted by matt_in_philly I wrote a different message but you know what, forget it. It turns out you're just an ignorant person. I thought that we could discuss things in a civilized manner but obviously that's too much for you. |
As a matter of fact, I don't think that I'm intelligent at all. If I was, I don't think I would have replied to the posts that praise anti-education statements. They are not even worth reading anyway. I don't know what I was thinking when I tried to explain the science to you. Sorry, lost cause when I did that. I re-read all posts just a minute ago and this time even I couldn't believe that I replied to them. They are all so ignorant and are just the words of somebody who bashes things that she could never have. I don't like Ferraris, either. They are just useless.
Reading messages like yours and some other’s on the British Expat forum is quite shocking. They sound more like a Taliban Government Press Release regarding their education policy. Good luck with your life. |
Originally posted by matt_in_philly As a matter of fact, I don't think that I'm intelligent at all. If I was, I don't think I would have replied to the posts that praise anti-education statements. They are not even worth reading anyway. I don't know what I was thinking when I tried to explain the science to you. Sorry, lost cause when I did that. I re-read all posts just a minute ago and this time even I couldn't believe that I replied to them. They are all so ignorant and are just the words of somebody who bashes things that she could never have. I don't like Ferraris, either. They are just useless. Reading messages like yours and some other’s on the British Expat forum is quite shocking. They sound more like a Taliban Government Press Release regarding their education policy. Good luck with your life. |
Originally posted by matt_in_philly They are all so ignorant and are just the words of somebody who bashes things that she could never have. I don't like Ferraris, either. They are just useless. come on, don't pick on Ferrari's, they are not useless, just overpriced |
Originally posted by Chopper-Chris come on, don't pick on Ferrari's, they are not useless, just overpriced :D :D :p :D :D |
Originally posted by Chopper-Chris come on, don't pick on Ferrari's, they are not useless, just overpriced |
Originally posted by dbj1000 ...and only people with degrees should be allowed to drive them! :D :D :p :D :D |
Originally posted by effi I agree. On the point of being useless though, I have to agree with that also. You can only go as fast as the speed limit allows. Mind you if you can afford a Ferrari, you can afford the speeding ticket. Never could see the point of buying a car that does a gazillion miles per hour, especially over here, now if you lived in Germany.................. It's not how fast you DO go- but how fast you COULD go that's important. |
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Originally posted by ironporer By that logic we all should be limited to driving a Geo Metro with a govenor limiting it to 65mph. It's not how fast you DO go- but how fast you COULD go that's important. or how fast you stop... |
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This cracks me up!
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Originally posted by Chopper-Chris and how fast you get there. or how fast you stop... ... and I didn't need any qualifications for where I'm going! :D . |
Originally posted by Patent Attorney Hope I'm not going off topic, but your inserted photo deserves a caption, here's mine: ... and I didn't need any qualifications for where I'm going! :D . |
Originally posted by monster You can rake in a seven-figure salary and have several PhDs, but if you're not happy, what's the point? Some degrees are vocational. You are required to have the qualification in order to do the job. All the principal degrees I can think of are like this and many professions (Clinical Psychology for instance) require a PhD or Psch D for the person to practise alone or "hang up their shingle". The pieces of paper actually provide a basic grounding in the field for those of us who just want to do the dammed job! |
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