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"Professional" job without degree

"Professional" job without degree

Old May 18th 2018, 11:41 pm
  #16  
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Default Re: "Professional" job without degree

Originally Posted by steveq View Post
That's why professional engineers sign off their work. It means that they are putting their careers on the line, that they have performed the necessary due diligence to make sure that, even if there are errors in the design sofrware, they have caught them. There is no license agrreement to absolve the engineer of his responsibility.
You seem to think software engineers are immune to the realities of making mistakes.

If a software engineer causes damages then they'll be gone, and try getting a job after being fired for gross negligence...

Just pissy because there is no degree or certification needed to have that title?
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Old May 18th 2018, 11:52 pm
  #17  
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Default Re: "Professional" job without degree

Originally Posted by tom169 View Post
Just pissy because there is no degree or certification needed to have that title?
You're missing the general point, very few software engineers are anything like.real engineers and their companies cower behind licences absolving themselves of any or all blame for anything that goes wrong. Software is still a craft, not a profession.
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Old May 19th 2018, 1:06 am
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Default Re: "Professional" job without degree

Originally Posted by steveq View Post
Not sure Software engineering is a real thing yet.
Other engineers create things which very rarely fail, by design, straight out of the gate. Bridges, tunnels, skyscrapers sort of thing.
Now think about software.
Actually, Steve, my daughter - a CS major- sometimes refers to herself as a software engineer. But that would be 4 years of college where not all of it is just programming. As she said, anyone can go away and learn how to code but the database/infrastructure stuff she does is another ballgame
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Old May 19th 2018, 1:54 am
  #19  
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Default Re: "Professional" job without degree

In my experience Americans are much less snobbish about this than Brits are. I have a degree from the Open University and nobody in the US has ever commented on it. I am very often asked by British colleague why I chose not to get a “proper” degree.
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Old May 19th 2018, 4:34 am
  #20  
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Default Re: "Professional" job without degree

Originally Posted by steveq View Post
You're missing the general point, very few software engineers are anything like.real engineers and their companies cower behind licences absolving themselves of any or all blame for anything that goes wrong. Software is still a craft, not a profession.
You've definitely missed the point and you're forgetting that software drives pretty much everything... That last plane journey you took? Software. Last time you had to go to hospital and were hooked up to a machine? Software.

There's equally as much onus on perfection in software as there is something physical per se.
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Old May 19th 2018, 3:39 pm
  #21  
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Default Re: "Professional" job without degree

Haha.
I'm prepared to bet money that whoever signs off on avionic and medical code, like IEC 62305 are professional engineers. You don't get to be an engineer by just declaring you are one.

Ooh yeah, the lady who was killed by an autonomous car .... Software.... The guy who died in an autonomous car failing to recognise a semi.... Software.

Therac ? Medical cancer therapy machine that cooked people to death with radiation. Software.

Don't know about you, but I want the people who design my medical and avionic software to have a certified qualification in formal methods etc.
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Old May 19th 2018, 3:44 pm
  #22  
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Default Re: "Professional" job without degree

Originally Posted by Arathe View Post
In my experience Americans are much less snobbish about this than Brits are. I have a degree from the Open University and nobody in the US has ever commented on it.
In general, American engineering schools have very little formal oversight by professional standard bodies, unlike the UK. To achieve PE here takes a program of continuous assessment AND more exams AFTER graduation. In the UK, you become technically qualified at the end of your masters to the standard of the monitoring body. You still need to acrue several years of additional training, then experience to qualify as a PE.
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Old May 19th 2018, 3:49 pm
  #23  
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Default Re: "Professional" job without degree

I work with many software engineers/ directors of engineering who do not have degrees and others who have PhD's. The path people take can be varied, and on a resume the absence of a degree will not prevent you getting an interview any tech company, including Google, Facebook etc. However, interviews will focus heavily on computer science fundamentals and this can be the undoing of many self-educated engineers. So, make sure you take time to fill any gaps in your CS knowledge. At some stage you'll be standing in front of a whiteboard being asked to implement Dijkstra's shortest path algorithm and be expected to talk about big O time and space complexities.
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Old May 21st 2018, 4:23 pm
  #24  
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Default Re: "Professional" job without degree

Originally Posted by steveq View Post
Haha.
I'm prepared to bet money that whoever signs off on avionic and medical code, like IEC 62305 are professional engineers. You don't get to be an engineer by just declaring you are one.

Ooh yeah, the lady who was killed by an autonomous car .... Software.... The guy who died in an autonomous car failing to recognise a semi.... Software.

Therac ? Medical cancer therapy machine that cooked people to death with radiation. Software.

Don't know about you, but I want the people who design my medical and avionic software to have a certified qualification in formal methods etc.
You've picked a couple of examples - didn't a bridge collapse recently in FL? Didn't an AmTrak rail line cause an accident recently?

Think of the amount of airplanes in the sky right now, the amount of people hooked up to a hospital bed right now and you're picking a handful of examples to justify your thirst for acceptance.
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Old May 22nd 2018, 7:23 pm
  #25  
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Default Re: "Professional" job without degree

You're right, there are a lot of companies in the USA that have a tick box for a bachelor's degree. It's not that they need the knowledge acquired (they don't even usually require a degree with any relevance to your job) it's just that they can demand a degree so they do. I would strongly recommend looking into getting a degree. There are ways to get regionally accredited degrees here in less than a year by testing out and using credit alternatives like Straighterline. It will also only cost around $5-6k. The big players for accepting alternative credit are Thomas Edison State University, Charter Oak State College and Excelsior College. If you're interested google DegreeForum, there are loads of people on there who have got their Liberal Arts or Business Admin Bachelor's degree this way. They're always happy to help newbies and help and advise with degree plans. Some of your IT certifications may also be accepted towards degree credit by some Universities.

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about diploma mills, these are respected universities and colleges.

Last edited by PootleK; May 22nd 2018 at 7:27 pm.
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Old May 22nd 2018, 9:28 pm
  #26  
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Default Re: "Professional" job without degree

Originally Posted by PootleK View Post
You're right, there are a lot of companies in the USA that have a tick box for a bachelor's degree. It's not that they need the knowledge acquired (they don't even usually require a degree with any relevance to your job) it's just that they can demand a degree so they do. I would strongly recommend looking into getting a degree. There are ways to get regionally accredited degrees here in less than a year by testing out and using credit alternatives like Straighterline. It will also only cost around $5-6k. The big players for accepting alternative credit are Thomas Edison State University, Charter Oak State College and Excelsior College. If you're interested google DegreeForum, there are loads of people on there who have got their Liberal Arts or Business Admin Bachelor's degree this way. They're always happy to help newbies and help and advise with degree plans. Some of your IT certifications may also be accepted towards degree credit by some Universities.

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about diploma mills, these are respected universities and colleges.
Interesting, I'll check out that option. Thanks!
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Old May 23rd 2018, 2:07 am
  #27  
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Default Re: "Professional" job without degree

Originally Posted by civilservant View Post
I understood that without a degree it would be harder to get anywhere in the US. So I started in environmental services working the floors in a hospital...
Is that post-millenium speak for a cleaner???? Serious question.
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Old May 23rd 2018, 1:24 pm
  #28  
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Default Re: "Professional" job without degree

Originally Posted by zzrmark View Post
Is that post-millenium speak for a cleaner???? Serious question.
Floor Technician was the actual term - it wasn't 'cleaning' per say since they do not clean patients rooms or take off trash etc. There are housekeepers for that. It is basically focused on the cleanliness and upkeep of waxed floors. Scrubbing, buffing, stripping and rewaxing.

In a facility of over 300 rooms, where a floor is stripped and waxed every day (not to mention all the hallways that are only done at night) the job is never done.
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Old May 23rd 2018, 8:53 pm
  #29  
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Default Re: "Professional" job without degree

Originally Posted by steveq View Post
Haha.
I'm prepared to bet money that whoever signs off on avionic and medical code, like IEC 62305 are professional engineers. You don't get to be an engineer by just declaring you are one.

Ooh yeah, the lady who was killed by an autonomous car .... Software.... The guy who died in an autonomous car failing to recognise a semi.... Software.

Therac ? Medical cancer therapy machine that cooked people to death with radiation. Software.

Don't know about you, but I want the people who design my medical and avionic software to have a certified qualification in formal methods etc.
And the bridge that collapsed in Florida? Probably had some involvement of "Professional Engineers". I'm sure i could come up with hundreds of similar examples.

The real challenge with Software is that it is so easy 'fix' after the fact, that there is far less pressure to get it right/perfect first time, and a tendency to 'ship it' based on due dates and such rather than on readiness for purpose. Concrete sets; steel gets riveted in place; bricks get mortared into place; hellishly hard to fix after the fact.

Last edited by Steerpike; May 23rd 2018 at 8:58 pm.
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Old May 23rd 2018, 8:57 pm
  #30  
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Default Re: "Professional" job without degree

Originally Posted by Arathe View Post
In my experience Americans are much less snobbish about this than Brits are. I have a degree from the Open University and nobody in the US has ever commented on it. I am very often asked by British colleague why I chose not to get a “proper” degree.
I agree. I happen to have a degree, and it was vital in getting the visa/first job in the US, but after 20-30 years, no one gives a rats ass. It's all about experience. Any company that cared whether I had a degree from 20+ years ago would probably not be a place I'd want to work at anyway.
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