neil

Correction, it's not acceptable to be openly racist. It's amazing how much racism there is in this part of the country even, and this is not a state you would associate that with.

bubbleberry

eXus t GrammERR

Trying to work and debate at the same time has its drawbacks.

Given our recent discussion on the other page its apparent that you and I, Mr Hume have different opinions about racism.

The very fact that this topic is argued about so much to me proves that it exists to some extent in society.

Because I choose not to ignore it, does not make me a screaming liberal, it makes me a realist.

More importantly where the real divide comes is between those with education and those without.Those with health care and those with none, and between those with money, and those who struggle to survive.

Having just completed the biometrics stage of my immigration proceedings, I am unable to get insurance.Today I went to get a prescription filled, and was shocked to discover that the supply of pills that would cost me $12 at home will now cost me $197, here in the US, for a one month supply.

How does a poor person afford that?The answer is they cannot.

Now before someone says that I am going off topic again, the fact is that it is all related.

Blacks earn on average half of what whites do.FACT.

America relies on immigrant farm workers, who earn minimum wage, but cannot afford to care for their families,FACT.

Go to the farms, the ghettos, the projects and tell me there is not a racial issue in America.

If you are black you are less likely to get an education, less likely to get health care and more likely to go to jail.

While we are spending BILLIONS going into space, perhaps we could get a team of NASA scientists to work out how to reduce poverty and increase health care and education levels among the country's citizens.When all Americans truly function as citizens, then it will be a great land.Until they are given the tools to do so, racism can be considered to be OK.

Xebedee

Nice idea, but there'd be no money in it.
So it won't happen.

You cannot have a nation of scientists, lawyers and businessmen.
Some people think you can.

Rete

[quote=bubbleberry;6059078]Go to the farms, the ghettos, the projects and tell me there is not a racial issue in America.

If you are black you are less likely to get an education, less likely to get health care and more likely to go to jail.

[quote]


And, why, pray tell, is that? Less likely to get an education? Why? Less Likely to get healthcare? Why? More likely to go to jail? Why?

Education is available, high education is available to the poor with scholarships, grants, student loans, etc. Education means you can get a decent paying job. A decent paying job means you can afford to live outside of the ghetto. A decent paying job means you either get a subsidized healthcare plan from your employer or might qualify for CHIP or a state plan if you don't have enough money leftover to pay for private healthcare. If you have an education and a job and healthcare and other good things in your life, you are less likely to be in jail.

My oh my, we go back to my original question. When do minorities, the poor, or average person start taking responsibility for their actions or inactions instead of playing the race or poverty card? Or people like yourself who have the bleeding hearts?

ex_exile

Maybe because inner city schools are underfunded? Maybe because laws are distorted to target crimes comitted by different sections of the community (powdered -v- crack cocaine)? Maybe because of racisim in hiring? Maybe because hope is gone?

neil

Education is generally paid for by property taxes; so to start off poorer neighbourhoods have lower quality schools. There are many areas where schools are penalised for not reaching targets which means they have less money. It's all messed up.

My wife has had problems even now in the job she's been in for 10 years. Admittedly, they don't like women almost as much as they don't like black people (they have been sued over some of their practices in the past so they are a bit more careful now), but they seriously underpay her (she puts up with it because she works from home).

She speaks to people on the phone all the time with her job, and there have been times when people have assumed she is white because of the way she presents herself.

Roland Hulme

Good point, Neil.

And not wanting to blow smoke up bubbleboy's arse, he might have a point. My boss and I were just discussing the other day how the only people we EVER see pulled over by the cops in New Jersey seem to be African American.

I mean, seriously. If you're going to racially profile, pull over Spanish looking people with out-of-state plates and if my street is anything to go buy, you'll find that many of them don't actually live out of state. Or have licences, insurance or inspected cars. Or green cards.

Most of the African Americans I know are law-abiding American citizens - so I don't get why they get profiled.

Roland Hulme

I don't think anybody's going to argue that the American health care system isn't in need of a BIG fix - but in regards to your perscription... Most likely the nationalised health service back home subsidized $175 of your pill's cost and you just paid the rest. The pills themselves cost the same.

This could be a whole new angry thread in itself, but I reckon if you're lucky enough to have health insurance, you'll get good and affordable medical care. If you don't - and that's the major flaw in the system even I can't argue with - you're shit out of luck.

Rete

In NYC and in my city they do not go to neighborhood schools. They are bused to schools outside of their living jurisdiction. But that aside, even in a poor neighbor if you want to excel and succeed you can and will if you have the desire to do so. Property taxes help fund schools but it isn't necessarily true that the better areas of Newark, NJ with a predominantly middle class working family population will have a better school then the ghetto section because of the tax structure. It would be because what teacher wants to work in an area where there is high crime and where they fear for their lives and safety daily or where the students are attending school only because they have to and not because they want to.

As for your wife, are you saying that she is discriminated against because she isn't white and a woman? Yes, there are corporations that still underpay women while working in the same position as a man. However, your wife is not chained to the job. If she wanted to return to the mundane 9 to 5 go to the office world, she could change employers and perhaps earn more than she does now.

And that is the entire point. If you have the desire, the education and motivation to suceed and excel in a professional career, you can.

neil

When you think about the fact that racial segregation was commonplace in the US into the 1960's it's not really surprising; anyone over a certain age would have been exposed to racist attitudes at a very early age, so there's bound to be some hold over in the thinking.

neil

You can, and she could but this suits our life right now so isn't a big concern so was just using it as an example; however, it is still harder because racism really does exist in a big way, and I'm sure for many you can soon lose hope and never reach your full potential because of that.

As for education, environment is a big factor and even if you go to a school in a different area, where you live, peer pressure, and parental input can make much more of a difference.

Roland Hulme

I guess I never really saw this as a problem in America because I saw the situation in France. Working there, the businesses I spoke to would NEVER talk to or deal with my female assistant - even though she spoke better French than I did and was a bossy, able and detirmined worker.

Women were secretarys, assistants etc... Royale, who recently ran for President, was a MAJOR exception.

I'm not saying their isn't sexism in the American workplace - I'm just saying it could A LOT worse.

Xebedee

There is fear in the American workplace. Fear of offending. Of possibly offending Of saying something that might be construed as maybe possibly offending.

One of my colleagues was criticising me a few weeks ago and I looked at him and said "You know, you are only saying that because I'm black"

He didn't know wether to laugh - you could tell, he looked so confused.

PC rubbish.

bubbleberry

Rete,

There will always be exceptions to the rule.Obama made good, Opra made good,Martian Luther made good...

But if you were to scientifically define education, and by the same standards define success in the workplace, and then make 2 lists, one of blacks and one of whites, you would, without doubt see that the best jobs go to white people.That is racism and it is accepted by society because the goverment does nothing to change it.

At home in Belfast when you apply for a job you have to complete what is called an "equal opportunities monitoring form". This is completely confidential, but it lists you race, you age, sex, marital status etc.This is submitted to a monitoring officer, who has a duty to ensure that there is no inequality.In a small company with 10 employees it may mean nothing if 9 of them are white males.But if its a bigger company, and there are 90 white males and a few female and black workers, then something is wrong.Obviously the figures are adjusted to allow for demographics.

You seem refuse to see racism for what it is.One man may be able to rise to the top, but it should not take a black man extraordinary effort to achieve what a white can through circumstance.

Telling people to get another job is simply taking the responsibility of the people it belongs to.The Government.

If you think that "Education means you can get a decent paying job." then you are clearly not at tune with the ills of society.

Many years ago in Orlando I ran an Irish Pub.A black guy came in one day and handed me his resume.He was a talented chef, that had worked in restaurants in Europe and Australia.He was trained, skilled, talented and well presented.This made me very nervous, because if he was asking to work in an Irish pub he was obviously not as good as he professed, but I hired him.
The next week the owner of the pub (an Irish man )called in.When he saw our new chef he told me to fire him.He said that it would effect trade to much...we argued,I threatened to resign, and the guy was allowed to stay.

That night we had drinks after work, and the chef told me that he had spent three whole weeks knocking on doors, filling in applications, chasing adds in the papers.He said every time they saw that he was black, they changed their attitude....

Roland Hulme

And this is why you're an idiot.

The government can't fix anything - least of all racism. Only time will cure people's racist attitudes. We're making progress, but you can't fix anything overnight.

Look where we are compared to thirty years ago. Then think fifty years ago.

Progress IS happening. In fifty years, racism as we know it today probably won't exist.

But I don't see WHAT you think the government can do to end racism, short of stupid, ineffective, unfair, reverse-racist rules that define somebody by the colour of their skin and not their abilities.

Affirmative action doesn't cure racism - it just encourages judging people by the colour of their skin instead of whether they're skilled or not.