Go Back  British Expats > Living & Moving Abroad > USA
Reload this Page >

Pledge/Flag etiquette???

Pledge/Flag etiquette???

Old Jan 17th 2011, 4:00 am
  #1  
BE Forum Addict
Thread Starter
 
Ash UK/US's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2003
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 4,524
Ash UK/US has a reputation beyond reputeAsh UK/US has a reputation beyond reputeAsh UK/US has a reputation beyond reputeAsh UK/US has a reputation beyond reputeAsh UK/US has a reputation beyond reputeAsh UK/US has a reputation beyond reputeAsh UK/US has a reputation beyond reputeAsh UK/US has a reputation beyond reputeAsh UK/US has a reputation beyond reputeAsh UK/US has a reputation beyond reputeAsh UK/US has a reputation beyond repute
Default Pledge/Flag etiquette???

A few days ago we went to my daughters Christmas, sorry winter , concert (it was cancelled in Dec because of snow). At the beginning parents were asked to stand, turn towards the flag and say the pledge with the kids. I stood as a mark of respect, I did not turn to the flag or say the pladge.

I noticed one of the other mothers 'side' glance at me a couple of times while saying the pledge then turn and stared daggers for a couple of seconds when she was done.

Did I do a breach of etiquette?
Ash UK/US is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2011, 4:14 am
  #2  
L2, GC, Surrey, OH, TX!
 
MsElui's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2007
Location: Surrey to Dallas (via Ohio)!
Posts: 6,357
MsElui has a reputation beyond reputeMsElui has a reputation beyond reputeMsElui has a reputation beyond reputeMsElui has a reputation beyond reputeMsElui has a reputation beyond reputeMsElui has a reputation beyond reputeMsElui has a reputation beyond reputeMsElui has a reputation beyond reputeMsElui has a reputation beyond reputeMsElui has a reputation beyond reputeMsElui has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Pledge/Flag etiquette???

we do the pledge every cub scout meeting. I usually mumble along and salute etc as i help lead the cubs and need to set an example. I say mumble - because im still not 100% sure of the words. one day i will be a dual citizen so i dont feel bad about saying it as i have 'honorable' intentions. I think that refusing to say it just makes the others feel awkward as they dont think that people present might not be full Americans and want to pledge so its the easiest way for me to deal with it.
MsElui is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2011, 4:17 am
  #3  
Account Closed
 
Joined: Aug 2002
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 38,867
ian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Pledge/Flag etiquette???

Originally Posted by Ash UK/US View Post
Did I do a breach of etiquette?
No. If you are a non-USC, you are not obligated to perform just so others can feel better about themselves! If you are a USC, it was entirely your choice. Either way, it's the other person who seems to have had the problem.

Ian
ian-mstm is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2011, 4:17 am
  #4  
 
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 1,352
avanutria has a reputation beyond reputeavanutria has a reputation beyond reputeavanutria has a reputation beyond reputeavanutria has a reputation beyond reputeavanutria has a reputation beyond reputeavanutria has a reputation beyond reputeavanutria has a reputation beyond reputeavanutria has a reputation beyond reputeavanutria has a reputation beyond reputeavanutria has a reputation beyond reputeavanutria has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Pledge/Flag etiquette???

Standing was good, I think maybe facing the flag might have been better (for one you would have blended in more) and you don't have to say anything. The mother probably thought you were trying to object to the flag ceremony or something - as MsElui said, it won't occur to most people that someone present isn't a US citizen.
avanutria is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2011, 4:21 am
  #5  
BE Forum Addict
Thread Starter
 
Ash UK/US's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2003
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 4,524
Ash UK/US has a reputation beyond reputeAsh UK/US has a reputation beyond reputeAsh UK/US has a reputation beyond reputeAsh UK/US has a reputation beyond reputeAsh UK/US has a reputation beyond reputeAsh UK/US has a reputation beyond reputeAsh UK/US has a reputation beyond reputeAsh UK/US has a reputation beyond reputeAsh UK/US has a reputation beyond reputeAsh UK/US has a reputation beyond reputeAsh UK/US has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Pledge/Flag etiquette???

Originally Posted by ian-mstm View Post
If you are a USC, it was entirely your choice.
Should have added that I am not a US citizen.
Ash UK/US is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2011, 4:24 am
  #6  
Account Closed
 
Joined: Aug 2002
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 38,867
ian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Pledge/Flag etiquette???

Originally Posted by Ash UK/US View Post
Should have added that I am not a US citizen.
Then you did nothing wrong. If people want to blend in that's their choice but, IMHO, as a non-USC it would have been a breach of etiquette if you had turned to the flag and recited the Pledge of Allegiance.

Ian
ian-mstm is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2011, 9:26 am
  #7  
BE Commentator
 
S Folinsky's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2010
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 7,269
S Folinsky has a reputation beyond reputeS Folinsky has a reputation beyond reputeS Folinsky has a reputation beyond reputeS Folinsky has a reputation beyond reputeS Folinsky has a reputation beyond reputeS Folinsky has a reputation beyond reputeS Folinsky has a reputation beyond reputeS Folinsky has a reputation beyond reputeS Folinsky has a reputation beyond reputeS Folinsky has a reputation beyond reputeS Folinsky has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Pledge/Flag etiquette???

Originally Posted by Ash UK/US View Post
A few days ago we went to my daughters Christmas, sorry winter , concert (it was cancelled in Dec because of snow). At the beginning parents were asked to stand, turn towards the flag and say the pledge with the kids. I stood as a mark of respect, I did not turn to the flag or say the pladge.

I noticed one of the other mothers 'side' glance at me a couple of times while saying the pledge then turn and stared daggers for a couple of seconds when she was done.

Did I do a breach of etiquette?
My gut reaction is that the proper etiquette would be to rise and face the flag but no need to place the hand over the heart or recite the pledge. [BTW, the original form of salute was to extend the right hand forward with the palm up. However, that fell out of favor in the 1930's due to its similarity to the Nazi salute].

But your question is a good one and caused me to think -- the wikipedia definition of "allegiance" is of interest. So, it seems that my initial reaction is consistent with the concept of "homage." For your own benefit, you might find it of interest that it appears that under British law, you do owe allegiance to the United States to a degree by the fact of your physical presence.

Last edited by S Folinsky; Jan 17th 2011 at 9:32 am.
S Folinsky is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2011, 12:11 pm
  #8  
Account Closed
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 760
goldenstate31 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Pledge/Flag etiquette???

Originally Posted by MsElui View Post
we do the pledge every cub scout meeting. I usually mumble along and salute etc as i help lead the cubs and need to set an example. I say mumble - because im still not 100% sure of the words.......... .
I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands,
one Nation under God,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
goldenstate31 is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2011, 12:24 pm
  #9  
Forum Regular
 
Swisstony's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2007
Location: Surrey!
Posts: 163
Swisstony has much to be proud ofSwisstony has much to be proud ofSwisstony has much to be proud ofSwisstony has much to be proud ofSwisstony has much to be proud ofSwisstony has much to be proud ofSwisstony has much to be proud ofSwisstony has much to be proud ofSwisstony has much to be proud ofSwisstony has much to be proud ofSwisstony has much to be proud of
Default Re: Pledge/Flag etiquette???

I stand, face the flag and don't say anything.
Swisstony is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2011, 12:34 pm
  #10  
BE Forum Addict
 
lisa67's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Toasty in Texas
Posts: 4,240
lisa67 has a reputation beyond reputelisa67 has a reputation beyond reputelisa67 has a reputation beyond reputelisa67 has a reputation beyond reputelisa67 has a reputation beyond reputelisa67 has a reputation beyond reputelisa67 has a reputation beyond reputelisa67 has a reputation beyond reputelisa67 has a reputation beyond reputelisa67 has a reputation beyond reputelisa67 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Pledge/Flag etiquette???

Originally Posted by Swisstony View Post
I stand, face the flag and don't say anything.
Me too, same with the singing of the Star Spangled Banner.
I let my teenage kids, who aren't USCs either, do what ever they feel most comfortable with. They usually say the pledge and sing the SSB.
lisa67 is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2011, 1:51 pm
  #11  
Deep in the woods of CT
 
Nutmegger's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,918
Nutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Pledge/Flag etiquette???

As I've said when this has come up in the past -- just show the same kind of courtesy that you would wish someone from another country to show during "the Queen." Which to my mind, as Swisstony said, is just quietly stand and face the flag.
Nutmegger is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2011, 3:03 pm
  #12  
Fair and balanced
 
kimilseung's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: WA
Posts: 14,230
kimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Pledge/Flag etiquette???

I dont think such bannana republic style state propoganda is anything I want to have respect for. Doing this with children, I find shoking.
I stay sitting (or leave the room) for anthems (British and American), but keep quiet and reasonably still.

I Have not had to deal with this where it will impact on my child, its one thing when I can snub it for the propoganda it is; another when it might affect how my child is treated.

I remember being at the ballet, in London, with Prince Edward in the audience, half the crowd stood, half sat, for the anthem. I know you will never get that reaction in America.

Last edited by kimilseung; Jan 17th 2011 at 3:06 pm.
kimilseung is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2011, 3:13 pm
  #13  
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
sir_eccles's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 8,106
sir_eccles has a reputation beyond reputesir_eccles has a reputation beyond reputesir_eccles has a reputation beyond reputesir_eccles has a reputation beyond reputesir_eccles has a reputation beyond reputesir_eccles has a reputation beyond reputesir_eccles has a reputation beyond reputesir_eccles has a reputation beyond reputesir_eccles has a reputation beyond reputesir_eccles has a reputation beyond reputesir_eccles has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Pledge/Flag etiquette???

Flag etiquette can be a touchy subject depending on where you are are. Some people take such matters VERY seriously, so often if is not a good idea to be confrontational about it.

Generally speaking, I commonly find myself in similar situations at sporting events. I respect their ritual by standing and taking off a hat if I am wearing one, this is particularly so if someone politely requests I take off my hat. I do not join in any further, I don't sing along, recite or salute. I will however shout "home of the Chiefs" at the end of the national anthem when at Chiefs games.

To some it is a quasi-religious aspect of the US (see also Manifest Destiny etc). Therefore as one might respect the local customs of a temple or church one should at least respect the local customs and avoid offense.
sir_eccles is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2011, 3:53 pm
  #14  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 181
airways is a name known to allairways is a name known to allairways is a name known to allairways is a name known to allairways is a name known to allairways is a name known to allairways is a name known to allairways is a name known to allairways is a name known to allairways is a name known to allairways is a name known to all
Default Re: Pledge/Flag etiquette???

Originally Posted by sir_eccles View Post
Flag etiquette can be a touchy subject depending on where you are are. Some people take such matters VERY seriously, so often if is not a good idea to be confrontational about it.

Generally speaking, I commonly find myself in similar situations at sporting events. I respect their ritual by standing and taking off a hat if I am wearing one, this is particularly so if someone politely requests I take off my hat. I do not join in any further, I don't sing along, recite or salute. I will however shout "home of the Chiefs" at the end of the national anthem when at Chiefs games.

To some it is a quasi-religious aspect of the US (see also Manifest Destiny etc). Therefore as one might respect the local customs of a temple or church one should at least respect the local customs and avoid offense.
I am a great believer in showing respect for the culture and traditions of others. It does not mean I would join in and pretend to be something I am not and nor would I respond well to being looked down on or insulted for not doing so. Free speech and free expression are the cornerstone of civilised society.
airways is offline  
Old Jan 17th 2011, 4:15 pm
  #15  
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
sir_eccles's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 8,106
sir_eccles has a reputation beyond reputesir_eccles has a reputation beyond reputesir_eccles has a reputation beyond reputesir_eccles has a reputation beyond reputesir_eccles has a reputation beyond reputesir_eccles has a reputation beyond reputesir_eccles has a reputation beyond reputesir_eccles has a reputation beyond reputesir_eccles has a reputation beyond reputesir_eccles has a reputation beyond reputesir_eccles has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Pledge/Flag etiquette???

Originally Posted by airways View Post
I am a great believer in showing respect for the culture and traditions of others. It does not mean I would join in and pretend to be something I am not and nor would I respond well to being looked down on or insulted for not doing so. Free speech and free expression are the cornerstone of civilised society.
Absolutely!

It's about picking your battles to an extent. For example, while the SCOTUS has ruled flag burning is free speech, I know people who would take even a joke about such things the wrong way.
sir_eccles is offline  

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.