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-   -   Pensions from UK question - US Tax Form (https://britishexpats.com/forum/usa-57/pensions-uk-question-us-tax-form-936919/)

lansbury Feb 19th 2021 10:43 pm

Re: Pensions from UK question - US Tax Form
 

Originally Posted by durham_lad (Post 12967796)
I always put 99-1234567 and in section 10 simply state that the provider is a UK company

Well I've tried that and combinations thereof:

99-1234567
00-0000000
11-1111111

and every time TT rejects the form with an invalid employers number error. So guess back to schedule 1 and miscellaneous income.

durham_lad Feb 20th 2021 9:47 am

Re: Pensions from UK question - US Tax Form
 

Originally Posted by lansbury (Post 12975470)
Well I've tried that and combinations thereof:

99-1234567
00-0000000
11-1111111

and every time TT rejects the form with an invalid employers number error. So guess back to schedule 1 and miscellaneous income.

At what point does TT reject it? I just did a validation check on my 2020 return and TT says that it is waiting for the IRS to confirm forms 4852. I currently have those forms completed with the EIN numbers of 99-1234567, imported from the previous year. I've been doing this for 14 years when I first starting receiving a UK private pension.

If it does reject the EIN numbers when I come to file then I'll use your method. I don't really think it makes any difference except the 4852 forms give plenty of space to explain where the pension is coming from and why there is no 1099-R. I use the TT downloaded version rather than on-line if that makes a difference,

MMcD Feb 20th 2021 3:17 pm

Re: Pensions from UK question - US Tax Form
 

Originally Posted by durham_lad (Post 12975558)
At what point does TT reject it? I just did a validation check on my 2020 return and TT says that it is waiting for the IRS to confirm forms 4852. I currently have those forms completed with the EIN numbers of 99-1234567, imported from the previous year. I've been doing this for 14 years when I first starting receiving a UK private pension.

If it does reject the EIN numbers when I come to file then I'll use your method. I don't really think it makes any difference except the 4852 forms give plenty of space to explain where the pension is coming from and why there is no 1099-R. I use the TT downloaded version rather than on-line if that makes a difference,

That's exactly what I was wondering - maybe a difference in the software mechanics between downloaded vs online forms
I also use the downloaded version.
It shouldn't make any difference to final result - but perhaps TT is stepping over itself in the processing of the input of info, depending on which version one uses...

But more to the point - TT (in downloaded version) is showing that Form 4852 simply isn't ready (at their end) for any kind of filing ..
It says that form will be ready for mail filing on 25 Feb. so I believe we'll know then whether e-filing will also be accepted. Meanwhile I'm still seeing the big red DO NOT FILE warning mentioned in my 1st post (above), atop each of my four 4852s


lansbury Feb 20th 2021 4:55 pm

Re: Pensions from UK question - US Tax Form
 

Originally Posted by durham_lad (Post 12975558)
At what point does TT reject it? I just did a validation check on my 2020 return and TT says that it is waiting for the IRS to confirm forms 4852. I currently have those forms completed with the EIN numbers of 99-1234567, imported from the previous year. I've been doing this for 14 years when I first starting receiving a UK private pension.

If it does reject the EIN numbers when I come to file then I'll use your method. I don't really think it makes any difference except the 4852 forms give plenty of space to explain where the pension is coming from and why there is no 1099-R. I use the TT downloaded version rather than on-line if that makes a difference,

I use the download version as well. It rejects the forms at the part it does the error checks. I can only think that as you have no problems it might be something to do with the Oregon State return being part of the process.

lansbury Feb 21st 2021 4:51 pm

Re: Pensions from UK question - US Tax Form
 
I gave up with the substitute 1099 and 4852, and went back to schedule 1. E-filed yesterday afternoon and got back note of acceptance from IRS and Oregon within a few hours.

geak Feb 25th 2021 4:46 am

Re: Pensions from UK question - US Tax Form
 
I got a few (4) UK pensions consolidated into a single defined benefits SIPP. Never taken any distribution as yet. Just plan on taking.
I assume there is a tax free amount. Don’t see how to reflect that in Form 4852 or Form 1040 Schedule 1.
So many people have experience here, just wonder if you could share here.

On Form 4852
Line 8 b Taxable amount
How to determine that ?

Line 8 e Capital gain (Included in Line 8 b)
Does it mean any amount above tax free is capital gain ?

Line 9 How did you determine the amounts in line 7 & 8
What document should be referenced here ?

If Form 1040 Schedule 1 Other Income is used, how to reflect the tax free amount ?



durham_lad Feb 25th 2021 7:44 am

Re: Pensions from UK question - US Tax Form
 

Originally Posted by geak (Post 12977236)
I got a few (4) UK pensions consolidated into a single defined benefits SIPP. Never taken any distribution as yet. Just plan on taking.
I assume there is a tax free amount. Don’t see how to reflect that in Form 4852 or Form 1040 Schedule 1.
So many people have experience here, just wonder if you could share here.

On Form 4852
Line 8 b Taxable amount
How to determine that ?

Line 8 e Capital gain (Included in Line 8 b)
Does it mean any amount above tax free is capital gain ?

Line 9 How did you determine the amounts in line 7 & 8
What document should be referenced here ?

If Form 1040 Schedule 1 Other Income is used, how to reflect the tax free amount ?

I have never heard of a defined benefit SIPP. I gather that you put the cash value of defined benefit pensions into a SIPP which is now a large pot of money that you invest yourself and choose how much to withdraw each year. Unless your defined benefit pensions had a tax free portion then all of the money sitting in the SIPP is tax deferred, i.e. it has never been taxed so has a “cost basis” of zero.

Just like a traditional IRA in the USA where only before-tax money has been saved then I would expect all distributions to be fully taxable. (There are IRAs with a combination of before and after tax contributions and then distributions are partly tax free, in which case form 8606 keeps track of the tax free basis from year to year - been there and still doing that).

geak Feb 25th 2021 10:55 am

Re: Pensions from UK question - US Tax Form
 
SIPP is defined contribution. Thanks durham_lad for the correction.
There is a 25% tax free portion documented in UK SIPP.
Try to understand how to reflect it in Form 4852 or Form 1040 Schedule 1.

durham_lad Feb 25th 2021 12:28 pm

Re: Pensions from UK question - US Tax Form
 

Originally Posted by geak (Post 12977302)
SIPP is defined contribution. Thanks durham_lad for the correction.
There is a 25% tax free portion documented in UK SIPP.
Try to understand how to reflect it in Form 4852 or Form 1040 Schedule 1.

There are various threads about whether or not the IRS recognizes the tax free lump sum that HMRC allows. I cannot remember what the consensus is as it is not something I have done or have the option to do. I suspect that the IRS will want to tax it. Hopefully someone will be along shortly with a more knowledgeable answer.

here is a recent discussion on the issue
https://britishexpats.com/forum/usa-...mp-sum-936649/

MMcD Feb 25th 2021 3:16 pm

Re: Pensions from UK question - US Tax Form
 
Has anyone managed to e-file IRS Form 4852 (Substitute 1099-R) yet with their 2020 return?
I'm still seeing the red DO NOT FILE warnings on the 4 forms I've saved for filing in Turbo Tax Deluxe (see screen shot above in my 1st post).
(That, despite the fact that TT indicates that form is ready for filing by mail :confused: )

Even more to the point, on their "Federal Individual Form Availability" page, (https://care-cdn.prodsupportsite.a.i...ndividual.html ) TT seem to indicate pretty decisively that the 4852 is and will remain "UNSUPPORTED" for efile this year.

Has anyone found otherwise?

durham_lad Feb 25th 2021 3:24 pm

Re: Pensions from UK question - US Tax Form
 

Originally Posted by MMcD (Post 12977400)
Has anyone managed to e-file IRS Form 4852 (Substitute 1099-R) yet with their 2020 return?
I'm still seeing the red DO NOT FILE warnings on the 4 forms I've saved for filing in Turbo Tax Deluxe (see screen shot above in my 1st post).
(That, despite the fact that TT indicates that form is ready for filing by mail :confused: )

Even more to the point, on their "Federal Individual Form Availability" page, (https://care-cdn.prodsupportsite.a.i...ndividual.html ) TT seem to indicate pretty decisively that the 4852 is and will remain "UNSUPPORTED" for efile this year.

Has anyone found otherwise?

I am in the same situation. I don't normally file until May and if this situation is still the case, then I will switch my UK pension income onto "Other Income" rather than send in the return by mail. The tax is the same so the IRS won't really care.

MMcD Feb 25th 2021 3:48 pm

Re: Pensions from UK question - US Tax Form
 

Originally Posted by durham_lad (Post 12977406)
I am in the same situation. I don't normally file until May and if this situation is still the case, then I will switch my UK pension income onto "Other Income" rather than send in the return by mail. The tax is the same so the IRS won't really care.

I believe, like me, you also have been filing several 4852s.
If you switch to using the "Other Income" form how would you either separate (or combine ?) the individual income sources you've been reporting on the individual 4852s?

I have a UK State income Pension and 3 separate UK Annuities.
As mentioned in an earlier post - I wish to remain as consistent as possible with regard to prior filings. Reporting this way would be a major change.

durham_lad Feb 25th 2021 4:06 pm

Re: Pensions from UK question - US Tax Form
 

Originally Posted by MMcD (Post 12977415)
I believe, like me, you also have been filing several 4852s.
If you switch to using the "Other Income" form how would you either separate (or combine ?) the individual income sources you've been reporting on the individual 4852s?

I have a UK State income Pension and 3 separate UK Annuities.
As mentioned in an earlier post - I wish to remain as consistent as possible with regard to prior filings. Reporting this way would be a major change.

Up to now I have been completing two 4852 forms each year.

In TT under "Miscellaneous Income" you can enter "Other reportable income", and then add a line for each UK pension. I've just tried it and it seems to work well. For each line I put the exact name of the pension provider as I did in the 4852. If the IRS did question the change it would be easily explainable.

lansbury Feb 25th 2021 4:35 pm

Re: Pensions from UK question - US Tax Form
 

Originally Posted by MMcD (Post 12977415)
I believe, like me, you also have been filing several 4852s.
If you switch to using the "Other Income" form how would you either separate (or combine ?) the individual income sources you've been reporting on the individual 4852s?

I have a UK State income Pension and 3 separate UK Annuities.
As mentioned in an earlier post - I wish to remain as consistent as possible with regard to prior filings. Reporting this way would be a major change.

Between Mrs L and I we have 5 pensions from the UK. 2 employer and 2 State (one each) and I have an annuity. In TT, which I have already e-filed for this year, I just show the total for each of us, which on schedule one becomes one total amount with the explanation "Pensions from the United Kingdom". Been doing it that way since you got me started with TT, and not had any problems.

MMcD Feb 25th 2021 5:11 pm

Re: Pensions from UK question - US Tax Form
 

Originally Posted by lansbury (Post 12977438)
Between Mrs L and I we have 5 pensions from the UK. 2 employer and 2 State (one each) and I have an annuity. In TT, which I have already e-filed for this year, I just show the total for each of us, which on schedule one becomes one total amount with the explanation "Pensions from the United Kingdom". Been doing it that way since you got me started with TT, and not had any problems.

:nod:.......I remember
It was back in the day of CDs :lol:


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