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Pacifist and atheist? No naturalization for you!

Pacifist and atheist? No naturalization for you!

Old Jun 20th 2013, 8:32 pm
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Default Pacifist and atheist? No naturalization for you!

A British woman who's been a LPR for 30 years faces being denied naturalization because she stated on her N-400 that she won't bear arms for the US on moral grounds, but USCIS say they will only accept the refusal on religious grounds, and she's an atheist.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3469358.html
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Old Jun 20th 2013, 8:44 pm
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Default Re: Pacifist and atheist? No naturalization for you!

When I was asked at my interview would I bear arms for the USA....
My reply was "Well, if they really wanted a 62 year old woman to bear arms, I will" knowing full well I'd never be asked to.
Sometimes, being practical is the easy option.
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Old Jun 20th 2013, 8:50 pm
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Default Re: Pacifist and atheist? No naturalization for you!

I landed here at 26, so was never in the running for selective service. Since I was 30 when I applied to become a citizen I didn't give too much thought to that particular question, though perhaps I should have.

In fairness, my objection to war itself may be from a moral/humanist standpoint but in all honesty, my objection to fighting in said war is more from a selfish, I don't want to be blown up perspective ...

Whatever your thoughts on war/bearing arms for the US though and given that this woman wrote a well worded, reasonable response to that question, I fear that this stunt by the USCIS is another step along the road to theocracy that the USA really doesn't want to take, lest they become exactly like those countries they are requiring our young men and women to bear arms against these days
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Old Jun 20th 2013, 9:10 pm
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Default Re: Pacifist and atheist? No naturalization for you!

Originally Posted by mamasue View Post
Sometimes, being practical is the easy option.
Yes, and I don't fault you for having taken that easy option, but it shouldn't even have been an issue.

It is insane that, in a country which supposedly has a "separation of church and state" churches and religions get so much special treatment.
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Old Jun 20th 2013, 9:11 pm
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Default Re: Pacifist and atheist? No naturalization for you!

Many people are selective pacifists until bombs start dropping on their head. I suspect there weren't many Brits that were pacifists during the Battle of Britain.
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Old Jun 20th 2013, 9:18 pm
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Default Re: Pacifist and atheist? No naturalization for you!

Originally Posted by Michael View Post
Many people are selective pacifists until bombs start dropping on their head. I suspect there weren't many Brits that were pacifists during the Battle of Britain.
Maybe so, but religious belief, or lack thereof, should not be a factor in evaluating the sincerity of someone who professes to be a pacifist.
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Old Jun 20th 2013, 9:19 pm
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Default Re: Pacifist and atheist? No naturalization for you!

Originally Posted by md95065 View Post
Maybe so, but religious belief, or lack thereof, should not be a factor in evaluating the sincerity of someone who professes to be a pacifist.
Especially since she quite categorically stated she would be willing to help and support the US in other capacities peripheral to actually bearing arms.

The whole thing stinks of theism. She's 64 years old, she'd never be required to bear arms anyway.
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Old Jun 20th 2013, 9:24 pm
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Default Re: Pacifist and atheist? No naturalization for you!

Originally Posted by Michael View Post
Many people are selective pacifists until bombs start dropping on their head. I suspect there weren't many Brits that were pacifists during the Battle of Britain.
Actually there were many and they often volunteered quite selflessly for dangerous non-combat duty such as bomb disposal, stretcher bearers and ambulance drivers.

I would hope that this case gets to the Supreme Court as unequal treatment seems to be their thing these days.
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Old Jun 20th 2013, 9:32 pm
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Default Re: Pacifist and atheist? No naturalization for you!

Originally Posted by md95065 View Post
Maybe so, but religious belief, or lack thereof, should not be a factor in evaluating the sincerity of someone who professes to be a pacifist.
Maybe their isn't such a thing as a pacifist, religious or not. I wonder how many people would not bear arms if there was a guaranteed imminent likelihood of their family being killed.
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Old Jun 20th 2013, 9:33 pm
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Default Re: Pacifist and atheist? No naturalization for you!

Originally Posted by sir_eccles View Post
Actually there were many and they often volunteered quite selflessly for dangerous non-combat duty such as bomb disposal, stretcher bearers and ambulance drivers.
Yes, I was thinking that too.
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Old Jun 20th 2013, 9:35 pm
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Default Re: Pacifist and atheist? No naturalization for you!

Originally Posted by sir_eccles View Post
Actually there were many and they often volunteered quite selflessly for dangerous non-combat duty such as bomb disposal, stretcher bearers and ambulance drivers.
But how is that being a pacifist. Whether they bared arms or not, they helped the war effort so that others could kill the enemy.
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Old Jun 20th 2013, 9:36 pm
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Default Re: Pacifist and atheist? No naturalization for you!

Originally Posted by sir_eccles View Post
Actually there were many and they often volunteered quite selflessly for dangerous non-combat duty such as bomb disposal, stretcher bearers and ambulance drivers.

I would hope that this case gets to the Supreme Court as unequal treatment seems to be their thing these days.
Some converted. Roger Waters, from Pink Floyd, his father was a pacifist but changed his mind and served - to be killed at Anzio. http://youtu.be/YKfwwlEcowk
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Old Jun 20th 2013, 9:46 pm
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Default Re: Pacifist and atheist? No naturalization for you!

To be a true pacifist, you have to be willing to live and die without military assistance or resistance under any laws imposed by the enemy.
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Old Jun 20th 2013, 9:47 pm
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Default Re: Pacifist and atheist? No naturalization for you!

The issue here is quite simple.

USCIS are discriminating against this applicant because of her lack of religious belief.

If there was no "let out" clause for anyone with regard to military service then it would be OK, but there is - you can opt to perform "non-combatant service" but, according to this decision, only if that is because of some religious belief.

In other words if you hear voices telling you that you should be a pacifist it is OK but if you have a rational basis for your belief it is not ...
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Old Jun 20th 2013, 9:48 pm
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Default Re: Pacifist and atheist? No naturalization for you!

Originally Posted by Michael View Post
But how is that being a pacifist. Whether they bared arms or not, they helped the war effort so that others could kill the enemy.
It's not holding a gun, it isn't shooting at people, it's finding a path that satisfies the authorities enough that they don't put you up against a wall and shoot you for cowardice.


Turns out this whole issue has been resolved in the woman's favor.

http://www.americanhumanist.org/news...n-quest-for-us
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