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this is one very scary documentary

this is one very scary documentary

Old Mar 4th 2007, 9:41 pm
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Default Re: this is one very scary documentary

Originally Posted by simongb View Post
I am a Christian (and British!). The Christians I know (including myself) are not right wing extremists hoping to take over the world in some sinister plot. We are just ordinary people trying to help in the community in which we live and to spread a little compassion and tolerance. What many of these so called Christians forget is that Christ warned us about judging others and that's all they seem to do! The media do seem to take a segment of a particular group (whether it be wacky Christians, gay people being overtly sexual and on drugs, muslims with machine guns wanting to kill nice, suburban westerners, immigrants who are criminals, single mothers draining the welfare system...the stereotypes go on and on and on) and blow it out of proportion. Yes, these people are a concern, but please do not judge everyone by what a minority does.
my concern is nothing to do with the fact that they are christian and I am fully aware that they do not represent the vast majority of christians around the world, in the same way that the islamic extremists so often portrayed in the western media do not reflect the ideas of the majority of muslism. My worry was that these people at least portrayed in this documentary seem to have a very singular aim to get into power and the white house.
One only has to read accounts in the latimes for instance of the kind of people put in charge of the rebuilding of iraq to see this at work, where party loyalty, religion and morality trumped experience and expertise every time. The guy responsible for re-opening the iraqui stock exchange was chosen for his party loyalty and his views on abortion. He was 24 and had 0 experience of economics or finance, even he couldnt help but wonder how he eneded up running a stock exchange. Needless to say it was a disaster. No wonder the Iraqis want these idiots out of their country!
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Old Mar 4th 2007, 10:27 pm
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Default Re: this is one very scary documentary

Originally Posted by Rockgurl View Post

When those brainwashed bible bashers start working for the government and start changing the constitution to serve themselves and trying to take away my rights, then I will get very verbal about it.
Already happening today and has been for years.
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Old Mar 4th 2007, 10:30 pm
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Default Re: this is one very scary documentary

Originally Posted by angelman View Post
my concern is nothing to do with the fact that they are christian and I am fully aware that they do not represent the vast majority of christians around the world, in the same way that the islamic extremists so often portrayed in the western media do not reflect the ideas of the majority of muslism. My worry was that these people at least portrayed in this documentary seem to have a very singular aim to get into power and the white house.
One only has to read accounts in the latimes for instance of the kind of people put in charge of the rebuilding of iraq to see this at work, where party loyalty, religion and morality trumped experience and expertise every time. The guy responsible for re-opening the iraqui stock exchange was chosen for his party loyalty and his views on abortion. He was 24 and had 0 experience of economics or finance, even he couldnt help but wonder how he eneded up running a stock exchange. Needless to say it was a disaster. No wonder the Iraqis want these idiots out of their country!
Well said - it's clear from the film "Jesus Camp" that the evangelists are interested in political power.
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Old Mar 5th 2007, 12:56 am
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Default Re: this is one very scary documentary

Originally Posted by simongb View Post


The media do seem to take a segment of a particular group (whether it be wacky Christians, gay people being overtly sexual and on drugs, muslims with machine guns wanting to kill nice, suburban westerners, immigrants who are criminals, single mothers draining the welfare system...the stereotypes go on and on and on) and blow it out of proportion. Yes, these people are a concern, but please do not judge everyone by what a minority does.
So I presume straight people who are overtly sexual and take drugs are immune to the Christian wrath then? Considering that the current government are using the religious right to deny me of my rights, then obviously it's not a harmless minority, now is it? As a gay woman, if it was left to the Christians then I wouldn't be allowed to even exist. It's gone too far to be flippantly disregarded. Religion is ruining the world and it's about time somebody spoke up. I despise religion of all types, but I save my biggest repulsion, abhorrence and fear for the fundamental Christians in particular. You have every right to believe in whatever you want to believe, but when Christians start to try and enforce their crap on me, then I really start to take exception. Why they feel the need to enforce their beliefs on to other people to the point of making them feel inferior and that they're "sinners", then there's something wrong. I always thought of Christianity in England as something benign and rather boring. Over here it's simply evil and overpowering. If you're a regular married-type person then I suppose you wouldn't notice it very much. When you're a minority that is despised by them, then you feel it in a much keener and more obvious way. They frighten me.
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Old Mar 5th 2007, 1:21 am
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Default Re: this is one very scary documentary

Originally Posted by Rockgurl View Post
So you don't think that religion has become completely out of control in America then?
I am not Christian. The one aspect of the Christian right that does bother me is the attempts to impose creationism as part of science doctrine. Other than that, I don't see any harm being done. I think it's a little over the top to say that "Christianity is out of control in America". Yes Bush is a born again, but so was Jimmy Carter. Clinton cited Jesus (if anything) more often than Bush. It's nothing new in American politics and I see it as just that... politics. I guess I don't fear Christianity in and of itself. I do find the current brand of Evangelicalism a little too commercialized and superficial, but those are minor complaints in the grand scheme of things. It's hardly "threatening".
You don't think that religion has such a huge impact that the main reason we have the government we do is because of the Christian Right?
I guess I just don't see any "vast conspiracy". I don't see the "threat". Could you be more specific?
It seems to me that it takes the British to point out a rather worrying threat looming in the future, because Americans are too obsessed with religion to recognize it as a problem themselves.
First, I have to say, to me that sounds superior and condescending. Do you honestly believe that Americans are stupid?

Second, why is religion a "problem"? As I said, I'm not religious, but why is it such a huge issue? People are just trying to get through life. If faith gives them happiness and joy, why is that (in and of itself) bad? If you're trying to say that there's some governmental conspiracy involving fanatical Christianity, could you give me specific examples? I don't see it.
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Old Mar 5th 2007, 1:22 am
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Default Re: this is one very scary documentary

Originally Posted by neil View Post
Well said - it's clear from the film "Jesus Camp" that the evangelists are interested in political power.
That camp has been shut down. Yet another example of people in the media trying to make a mountain out of a molehill to make a (flimsy) point.
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Old Mar 5th 2007, 1:28 am
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Default Re: this is one very scary documentary

Originally Posted by Rockgurl View Post
So I presume straight people who are overtly sexual and take drugs are immune to the Christian wrath then? Considering that the current government are using the religious right to deny me of my rights, then obviously it's not a harmless minority, now is it?
How? Please be specific.
As a gay woman, if it was left to the Christians then I wouldn't be allowed to even exist.
What? Which Christians? What is your evidence?
...but I save my biggest repulsion, abhorrence and fear for the fundamental Christians in particular.
...becuase we all know the huge tolerance that Muslims have for gay people. Not trying to make this an "us vs. them" argument, but just saying...
You have every right to believe in whatever you want to believe, but when Christians start to try and enforce their crap on me, then I really start to take exception. Why they feel the need to enforce their beliefs on to other people to the point of making them feel inferior and that they're "sinners", then there's something wrong.
Has that happened to you? If it has, I can completely understand feeling that way.
I always thought of Christianity in England as something benign and rather boring. Over here it's simply evil and overpowering.
...why do you feel that way?
If you're a regular married-type person then I suppose you wouldn't notice it very much. When you're a minority that is despised by them, then you feel it in a much keener and more obvious way. They frighten me.
Interesting point as I probably am "regular married-type" (if you can reduce me to that) person. I wonder if most gay people feel the same way.
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Old Mar 5th 2007, 1:47 am
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Default Re: this is one very scary documentary

Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
How? Please be specific. What? Which Christians? What is your evidence? ...becuase we all know the huge tolerance that Muslims have for gay people. Not trying to make this an "us vs. them" argument, but just saying... Has that happened to you? If it has, I can completely understand feeling that way. ...why do you feel that way? Interesting point as I probably am "regular married-type" (if you can reduce me to that) person. I wonder if most gay people feel the same way.
Are you deaf, dumb and blind? Church - every church - tells you that gay sex is a sin - pure and simple. Sheesh.
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Old Mar 5th 2007, 2:28 am
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Default Re: this is one very scary documentary

Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
How? Please be specific. What? Which Christians? What is your evidence? ...becuase we all know the huge tolerance that Muslims have for gay people. Not trying to make this an "us vs. them" argument, but just saying... Has that happened to you? If it has, I can completely understand feeling that way. ...why do you feel that way? Interesting point as I probably am "regular married-type" (if you can reduce me to that) person. I wonder if most gay people feel the same way.
Yes, most gay people do feel this way, and it's specifically because of the anti-gay rhetoric that fundamentalist Christians spout quite openly. There aren't that many fundamentalist Muslims in America so I don't feel their threat quite so directly, but here they are quite widespread and it's easy to live in fear if you don't have some pride. Here are some more choice examples, if you want actual quotes and research:


Bush calls for ban on same-sex marriages

Wednesday, February 25, 2004

President Bush calls for a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage.


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush endorsed a constitutional amendment Tuesday that would restrict marriage to two people of the opposite sex.

"The union of a man and a woman is the most enduring human institution, honored and encouraged in all cultures and by every religious faith," Bush said.

"Marriage cannot be severed from its cultural, religious and natural roots without weakening the good influence of society."




Ronald Reagan:

"They that live in sin shall die in sin. Homosexuality is a sad disease."

Reagan, the Right, and us - influence of antigay religious right on Republican presidential candidates





Christian School Forces Gay Student to Expel Himself

Gay student forced to leave school

The Dallas Morning News



Trinity Christian School was his second family, the student said, and by every indication he was one of the school's favorite sons.

But when the school's top administrators learned that the student had created a Web site where teens chat about homosexuality, he said they gave him a choice: either leave quietly or face expulsion for "immoral behavior," which is prohibited by the school's code of conduct.

In a matter of days, the student, who is gay, went from prized student to sinner outcast.

Today, the student attends high school in Plano, and students, teachers and administrators at Trinity Christian are left debating whether forcing the withdrawal of a popular lifelong student was the "Christian" thing to do. The case also shines a light on the moral culture clash with which private fundamentalist schools are increasingly wrestling.





USA Today

Gay Teens

Not everyone applauds the soaring number of school-based gay/straight alliances and adult-led programs for gay teens. "Homosexuality is harmful to society, and young people have no business committing to a sexual identity until they're adults," says Peter Sprigg of the Family Research Council, a conservative policy group. The council backs a new Georgia law, first in the nation, that requires schools to tell parents about clubs and allows them to forbid their children to participate in gay/straight alliances.

Lobbying is underway to pass similar laws in North Carolina, Virginia, Tennessee, Alabama and Texas, says Joe Glover of the Family Policy Network, a Christian family advocacy group. "Parents shouldn't have to check their rights at the school room door," he says.

Researchers traditionally have emphasized that gay teens have worse mental health and higher suicide rates than straight teens.





Jerry Falwell

"god hates homosexuality" -




Pat Robertson of the Christian Broadcasting Network:


Gays were behind Hitler

“When lawlessness is abroad in the land, the same thing will happen here that happened in Nazi Germany. Many of those people involved in Adolph Hitler were Satanists. Many of them were homosexuals. The two things seem to go together.” - 700 Club, 1-21-93 (source: People for the American Way Foundation)

Gays are appalling

“...What kind of craziness is it in our society which will put a cloak of secrecy around a group of people whose lifestyle is at best abominable. Homosexuality is an abomination. The practices of those people is appalling. It is a pathology. It is a sickness, and instead of thinking of giving these people a preferred status and privacy, we should treat AIDS exactly the same way as any other communicable disease...” - 700 Club, 6-6-88 (source: People for the American Way Foundation)

Gays want to disprupt churches, spread AIDS and spit at ministers

"[Homosexuals]want to come into churches and disrupt church services and throw blood all around and try to give people AIDS and spit in the face of ministers." Pat Robertson, 700 Club, 1/18/95 - People for the American Way Web site, http://www.pfaw.org/issues/right/rtvw.antigay.shtml

Homosexuality leads to decline of civilization
"...the acceptance of homosexuality is the last step in the decline of Gentile civilization." --Pat Robertson, of the Christian Broadcasting Network, warned that hurricanes could hit Orlando, Fla., because of gay events there. Time magazine, Oct 26, 1998



The Family Research Council


Gays are deviants

"Homosexuals have never been forced to sit in the back of the bus. They are as privileged a group as any. To compare their attempts to affirm deviant sexual conduct to the legitimate discrimination claims of true minorities is a sham," said FRC Director of Cultural Studies Robert H.
Knight - FRC's CultureFacts, July 28, 1999, http://www.frc.org/culture/cu99g4.html

Homosexuality is a "life destroyer" - destroys families, shatters hope
Robert Knight: "The sexual revolution, of which homosexual activism is a key part, has laid waste to countless lives, destroyed families, and shattered hope for people who have been cast adrift into a deadly carnival of excess. It's time to reaffirm the permanent things of marriage and family and sexual sanity. It's time to throw people a life preserver instead of a life destroyer, which the homosexual subculture surely is."- December 1997 Address at Harvard, http://www.frc.org/podium/pd97l1hs.html

Gays aren't monogamous

"monogamy is not the norm for the average homosexual." - http://www.frc.org/fampol/fp96bhs.html


Gays are security risks


"homosexuals are a security risk" - http://www.frc.org/insight/is95d1hm.html




Christian Coalition of Maine’s Paul Volle


Gays ingest urine and fecal matter

"Being frustrated by the biological impossibility of natural sexual relations between members of the same sex, they must resort to bringing their mouth into contact with areas of the body designed for the elimination of human waste, or use body apertures not meant for sexual penetration, either of which causes serious hygienic and health risks. Once these homosexuals bridge the natural reluctance to come into contact with human waste, a significant number of homosexuals go further and further. Many times to the point of ingesting the urine and fecal matter of their partners. This leads to serious health risks to not only them, but the population at large, through the food chain, medical services, and other avenues of society." - - Paul Volle, Chairman, Christian Coalition of Maine, "The Gay Agenda,"




Dr. Paul Cameron (The Family Research Council)


Exterminate gays

"At the 1985 Conservative Political Action Conference, Cameron announced to the attendees, 'Unless we get medically lucky, in three or four years, one of the options discussed will be the extermination of homosexuals.' According to an interview with former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop, Cameron was recommending the extermination option as early as 1983." - Mark E. Pietrzyk, News-Telegraph, March 10, 1995.



The American Family Association

Gays support pedophilia, incest, and bestiality

"Prominent homosexual leaders and publications have voiced support for pedophilia, incest, sadomasochism, and even bestiality." - http://www.afa.net, Homosexuality in America: Exposing the Myths.




NARTH

(National Association for Research and Treatment of Homosexuality -
the most prominent ex-gay conversion organization, headed by Joseph Nicolosi, called by the American Family Association "probably the most famous psychologist" who believes gays can change)


Gays cheat, fight, and hate the one they love

"Nicolosi describes gay partnerships as bedeviled by cheating, teasing, fights, jealousy, rage, suspicion, envy, restlessness, and disappointment. Nicolosi writes, ‘Homosexual relationships are so characteristically volatile because the homosexual hates what he loves.’ " - Joseph Nicolosi, head of NARTH and one of the religious right's top two ex-gay psychiatrists in the country, from NARTH's Web site, http://www.narth.com/docs/1996papers/berman.html



Colorado for Family Values

Gays molest children

"homosexuals, while representing perhaps 2% of the population, perpetrate more than one-third of all reported child molestations."- http://www.qrd.org/qrd/religion/anti...port.pt1-03.94




Rev. Fred Phelps
(The Westboro Baptist Church, Topeka, KS -
Phelps gained national attention protesting at Matt Shepard's funeral)


Gays worthy of death


"Not only is homosexuality a sin, but anyone who supports fags is just as guilty as they are. You are both worthy of death (Romans 1:32)," Phelps quoted by State Press (Arizona State University), March 11, 1998.



Senator Don Nickles


Gays shouldn't represent US

"One might have that lifestyle, but if one promotes it as acceptable behavior… I don’t think they should be a representative of this country." - Sen. Nickles, quoted in Jun 15, 98 Americans for Truth About Homosexuality press release.




US Senator Jesse Helms (R-NC)


Gays are "sickening" and "intellectually dishonest"

"These people are intellectually dishonest in just about everything they do or say,".... He added, "They start by pretending that it is just another form of love. It's sickening." - Tuesday June 30 7:49 AM EDT, Variety





















Does that explain it clearly enough? There is so much of this stuff that I am quoting a mere tiny fraction. This is why I fear Christian fundamentalism and this is why I am anti-religion. These are the extremists, but there are a large percentage of regular American Christians who hold this view and quite openly express their anti-gay views. There are people out there being cast from their homes, beaten and abused because of the extreme Christian views of a section of society. I'm sorry to quote such a long post but I felt this worthy of some real evidence.
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Old Mar 5th 2007, 3:05 am
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Default Re: this is one very scary documentary

Originally Posted by Sally View Post
Are you deaf, dumb and blind? Church - every church - tells you that gay sex is a sin - pure and simple. Sheesh.
Sorry Sally, have to disagree. Our church is a Lutheran church in Santa Monica. About a year ago the minister 'came out' to the congregation by sending a letter out to informing them of his lifestyle and introducing his boyfriend. Most of the congregation accepted it including many people in their 70's and 80's and just moved on. Him and his boyfriend are now active in many church functions, and his boyfriend has since joined the choir.
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Old Mar 5th 2007, 12:13 pm
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Default Re: this is one very scary documentary

Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
That camp has been shut down. Yet another example of people in the media trying to make a mountain out of a molehill to make a (flimsy) point.
Hardly as flimsy as your point - who cares if the camp has been shut down; that fact hardly stops the people involved existing and continuing to enforce their views on others. The issue here is that there is a large minority who wish to use their "christian" views to promote intolerance and to influence the way people live their lives by removing certain freedoms. What's worrying is that people like you don't seem to see it as a threat to the American way of life. There are certain issues that have become political which should be simple personal lifestyle freedoms. The country was built on religious freedom and as far as I can tell that would include the right to not believe and would also include gay union, the right to choose whether you would have an abortion etc.
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Old Mar 5th 2007, 1:45 pm
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Default Re: this is one very scary documentary

Originally Posted by neil View Post
Hardly as flimsy as your point - who cares if the camp has been shut down; that fact hardly stops the people involved existing and continuing to enforce their views on others. The issue here is that there is a large minority who wish to use their "christian" views to promote intolerance and to influence the way people live their lives by removing certain freedoms. What's worrying is that people like you don't seem to see it as a threat to the American way of life. There are certain issues that have become political which should be simple personal lifestyle freedoms. The country was built on religious freedom and as far as I can tell that would include the right to not believe and would also include gay union, the right to choose whether you would have an abortion etc.
You know what I think is a dying shame!! The majority of Gay blokes are drop dead georgous! I mean 6 pack bellies, nice hair cuts, and manners!!!! They dress well, and the UNDERSTAND a woman. I think we have moved so far onwards that does it really matter if its same sex or not? Its freedom of choice? If that is the way the cookie crumbles . I do object to those kids tho wearing those tshirts. That seriously is not on. Dont like it. I dont agree with everything that goes on with this world, and have strong views about certain areas - however everyone is different. Might not like it but I accept it. Your right too tho about the church calling it a sin. That is why for hundreds of years the catholic church has had so many gay priests, etc. Might be a sin but as by adam and eve, sins seem to be in everyone of us. being unfaithful is a sin, charles and camilla seem to be enjoying life dont they.
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Old Mar 5th 2007, 3:24 pm
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Default Re: this is one very scary documentary

Originally Posted by lionheart View Post
Sorry Sally, have to disagree. Our church is a Lutheran church in Santa Monica. About a year ago the minister 'came out' to the congregation by sending a letter out to informing them of his lifestyle and introducing his boyfriend. Most of the congregation accepted it including many people in their 70's and 80's and just moved on. Him and his boyfriend are now active in many church functions, and his boyfriend has since joined the choir.
It would have been easier if he just got a transfer to West Hollywood.
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Old Mar 5th 2007, 5:28 pm
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Default Re: this is one very scary documentary

Originally Posted by Rockgurl View Post
Yes, most gay people do feel this way, and it's specifically because of the anti-gay rhetoric that fundamentalist Christians spout quite openly.......
One of the best posts I've read on here in a long time.
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Old Mar 5th 2007, 5:31 pm
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Default Re: this is one very scary documentary

Originally Posted by rincewind View Post
One of the best posts I've read on here in a long time.
And I'm down to 10/12 fags a day at the moment ....
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