Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

From the NY Times

Because even if your state says you are married, it doesn't really count unless the federal gubmint thinks you're married.

Discuss.

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

Discuss? Let's hear your views on it first...then perhaps we'll discuss it.

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

"I've nothing against gay marriage - if a gay man wants to marry a gay woman, why the hell should I care?"

James P Connolly, Blue Collar Radio..........................

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

I can't decide about the whole gay marriage thing. I'm afraid one part of me sees the demand for the right for same sex couples to marry to be a manifestation of two unattractive American traits; (1) overblown sense of personal entitlement, and (2) church/religious domination, so same sex couples want a big traditional wedding with all the trimmings. What I mean is, what is wrong with full civil unions, as in the UK for instance, with ALL rights and obligations equivalent to marriage flowing from the union, including immigration rights.

On the other side, however, I see that opposition to same-sex marriage is just another fundamentalist stance of the right-wing US Taliban who want to impose their moral universe on everyone else, so if push comes to shove count me in on the side of the same sex marriage advocates.

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

I have no problem with same-sex marriages. Just as long as the sex is female.

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

I think that it's because, unfortunately, most of the financial and emotional benefits come from 'marriage', not 'civil unions' - things like being able to make decisions in a hospital for your loved one, etc.

The government should not be involved in marriage - everyone should have civil unions, and the law should be set up on that basis. If a couple (hetero or not) wish to then have a marriage ceremony in a religious institution, that is between the couple and the institution.

Of course, if the religious nut-jobs against same-sex marriage are using the 'sanctity of marriage', then why aren't they trying to get divorce made illegal? ;)

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

Yes I agree 100% ... and as I said, civil unions would need "ALL rights and obligations equivalent to marriage flowing from the union, including immigration rights." So this would include decisions for loved ones etc.

It's also notable that "red states" have much worse stats for marriage breakdown, divorce, domestic violence and other personal & relationship dysfunction than pesky, godless "blue states."

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

Unconfuse me as to the UK differences legally between a religious wedding ceremony and a civil union ceremony?

Here in the US they are one and the same in terms of "rights" granted by the State giving the power to an individual to join two people together in a wedding ceremony. For example, both allow the other to make decisions in emergency situations at a hospital, both allow the other to become a participant of the others healthcare insurance, etc.

Is it that you just don't want to see any weddings / marriages performed by a clergy member?

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

Yes, I don't think it has anythiing to do with wanting any particular kind of wedding, or with any *unusual* sense of entitlement. Gay people simply want the rights, not the ceremony. They want the right to marry whomever they wish and live with that person, & have that right legally upheld, as it is for heterosexual couples.

Civil unions are fine, as long as they are legally upheld for homosexuals as well as heterosexuals across the board, such as for immigration purposes. The UK can do this, but the US does not . . . .

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

Why should straight couples be allowed a religious wedding but gay couples not? I'm not saying that churches should be forced to marry gay people, but if a church is willing then there is no reason that they shouldn't be able to do it.

The whole civil vs marriage thing is silly anyway, they should all just be marriage. It's not like there is a strict definition of marriage being a religious thing only. I had a "civil union" wedding and no one has ever corrected me whenever I said I got married.

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

OK, can we stop talking about this now? All the hairs on my arms and the back of my neck are standing up.

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

Definitely, it should be up to each religion, each denomination, each congregation .. and each minister to define what is acceptable to them and what is not.

But one issue here in the US is the federal DOMA which makes same sex marriages performed in foreign countries or some US states NOT fully equal to other marriages.

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

Ask yourself the following question:

Is it ok for a black man to marry a white woman or vice versa?

Yes, interracial marriages were banned in the US until relatively recently. Do you think it would be ok to limit interracial couples to having civil unions?

The over riding problem with this issue is there are rights at a federal level which conflict with rights at a state level. All have to be brought to the same point at the same time. I liken it to when they changed the drinking age to 21 where federal highway funds were withheld unless the states changed their drinking laws to match.

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

Exactly.

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

As the parent of a gay child, I would like him to have the right to get really married (if he wanted to,) and by really married, I mean not just in one of a few states. And if he (a USC) married an immigrant, he should be able to sponsor that immigrant for a green card. I just don't understand why marriage is legislated at the state level, when so many federal regulations from taxation to immigration are dependent on marital status.

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

I'm not sure about gay marriage. On one hand, I don't give a toss what other people do. On the other hand, I want to see what happens when two married-to-each-other women are trying to get in the last word.

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

I thought that issue had been settled in the 1860s.

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

© Bernard Manning 1970.

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

Who?

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

Of course. Anyone's child should be able to marry & thus acquire broadly the same "marital" rights (immigration, taxation, inheritance, et al) as any other wedded couple, regardless of sexual orientation. This is a flaw in the American system, that there is sometimes this disconnect between state & federal legalities that will cause inequality. This flaw can only be fixed at the federal level, IMO. We can't sit & wait for each & every state to come on board to allow same-sex marriage, because that may take a long time . . . or may never happen. It's time for congress to act.

Excellent Daily Beast piece by Andrew Sullivan, 'Why Gay Marriage is Good for Straight America'.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswee...r-america.html

(I don't always agree with Sullivan's politics, but this essay shows exactly why NO one should be excluded from the possibility of a marital bond.)

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

Thats....not exactly going to work now? Is it? The US can't exactly uphold a UK law....(even for immigration).

As for marriages/civil unions - same thing really and course they should be allowed. But not in church because that doesn't really fly.

Anyway, just think of the gossip sheets when people like Elton John gets divorced and they all start bitching over his money. IIRC, Navratilova had a gay marriage, went to get divorced a few years later and found a bit of a lawsuit on her hands over her cash - claimed that the marriage was real because both partners were the same sex...

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

Non no, you're misunderstanding what I said. I said same-sex partners need similar rights *within the USA* to those enjoyed by same-sex married partners in the UK. I don't expect the US to uphold a UK law; I expect the US to change their own laws to treat same-sex partners in somewhat as civilized a fashion as the UK treats theirs.

Seems crazy that an American can 'marry' a foreigner in some US states, but that that foreigner can't be sponsored for a spouse visa because of gender. Would you want a child of yours to marry a foreigner, then have to leave the country because the spouse couldn't live in the US?

I agree, a church ceremony is not the point. I think some churches may welcome same-sex ceremonies & some may not. This should be completely up to the church, not the government, but this is only my opinion. . . .

Elton John went through a civil ceremony in the UK. He hasn't divorced yet, but one could say that hetero celebs are just as prone to messy public spectacles when they part as same-sex couples.

Martina Navartilova was a very different case. She & the partner who sued her a few years back were never legally married, but aupposedly agreed to split all earnings 50-50. This has also happened to lots of high-profile hetero couples who never tied the knot officially, that one will sue the other for promises made in the course of the relationship.

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

I think you are some what out of touch with Christian teaching. How can you marry a same sex partner in the eyes of God when the Bible is specifically against homosexuality?

I agree that it should be up to the church in question to choose, but the UK is a monster nanny state where Government officials and politicians know best. Heaven forbid someone thinks for themselves.

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

Elton - totally agree - I just think what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Let them marry and let us enjoy the divorce, just like we do with anyone else.

As for Navratilova - I thought she got married (or at least had a ceremony) on a beach somewhere. When it came time to "divorce" that's when she started to redefine the definition of their relationship - mainly in an attempt to reduce the payout?

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

No, I don't think I'm out of touch. ;) This is from 2005, 7 years ago.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4651803.stm

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

I've never really understood this "nanny state" accusation. I myself find state meddling and bureaucracy (federal, state, county, town etc.) more intrusive in the US than I ever did in the UK.

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

Strictly speaking the bible is specifically against a whole load of shit that the modern world doesn't care about any more.

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

Exodus 35:2
Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
Do WalMart know about this one?

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

Leviticus 19:19
"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material."

I'm pretty sure that there aren't all that many wedding dresses made from a single material.

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

The washing instructions in those days were pretty basic.. and in Aramaic only, of course.

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

Maybe you are out of touch too. Jesus, without whom there would be no Christianity said nothing, in the words attributed to him, concerning homosexuality.

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

Should it though? Should we allow institutions to decide if they discriminate or not? Doesn't seem a lot different than allowing restaurants to not serve black people.

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

It's a mess. Married gay couples can file state taxes as married (assuming they live in the state they got married in or another state that recognizes gay marriage) but can't if they have moved to a state that doesn't recognize gay marriage. Not sure what happens if they want to get divorced after such a move! And, of course, they can't file federal taxes as married, nor derive any other benefit of marriage that comes from federal law, including, of course, immigration law.

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

It's an utter scandal. :frown: Americans should be ashamed, but of course they're not . . . .