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-   -   Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban (https://britishexpats.com/forum/usa-57/noncitizens-sue-federal-government-over-gay-marriage-ban-753881/)

BellaE Apr 5th 2012 12:31 am

Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 
From the NY Times

Because even if your state says you are married, it doesn't really count unless the federal gubmint thinks you're married.

Discuss.

Jerseygirl Apr 5th 2012 1:21 am

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

Originally Posted by BellaE (Post 9989804)
From the NY Times

Because even if your state says you are married, it doesn't really count unless the federal gubmint thinks you're married.

Discuss.


Discuss? Let's hear your views on it first...then perhaps we'll discuss it.

Yorkieabroad Apr 5th 2012 3:44 am

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 
"I've nothing against gay marriage - if a gay man wants to marry a gay woman, why the hell should I care?"

James P Connolly, Blue Collar Radio..........................

robin1234 Apr 5th 2012 12:52 pm

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 
I can't decide about the whole gay marriage thing. I'm afraid one part of me sees the demand for the right for same sex couples to marry to be a manifestation of two unattractive American traits; (1) overblown sense of personal entitlement, and (2) church/religious domination, so same sex couples want a big traditional wedding with all the trimmings. What I mean is, what is wrong with full civil unions, as in the UK for instance, with ALL rights and obligations equivalent to marriage flowing from the union, including immigration rights.

On the other side, however, I see that opposition to same-sex marriage is just another fundamentalist stance of the right-wing US Taliban who want to impose their moral universe on everyone else, so if push comes to shove count me in on the side of the same sex marriage advocates.

Uncle Ebenezer Apr 5th 2012 1:28 pm

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 
I have no problem with same-sex marriages. Just as long as the sex is female.

rallybug Apr 5th 2012 1:35 pm

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

Originally Posted by robin1234 (Post 9990574)
I can't decide about the whole gay marriage thing. I'm afraid one part of me sees the demand for the right for same sex couples to marry to be a manifestation of two unattractive American traits; (1) overblown sense of personal entitlement, and (2) church/religious domination, so same sex couples want a big traditional wedding with all the trimmings. What I mean is, what is wrong with full civil unions, as in the UK for instance, with ALL rights and obligations equivalent to marriage flowing from the union, including immigration rights.

On the other side, however, I see that opposition to same-sex marriage is just another fundamentalist stance of the right-wing US Taliban who want to impose their moral universe on everyone else, so if push comes to shove count me in on the side of the same sex marriage advocates.

I think that it's because, unfortunately, most of the financial and emotional benefits come from 'marriage', not 'civil unions' - things like being able to make decisions in a hospital for your loved one, etc.

The government should not be involved in marriage - everyone should have civil unions, and the law should be set up on that basis. If a couple (hetero or not) wish to then have a marriage ceremony in a religious institution, that is between the couple and the institution.

Of course, if the religious nut-jobs against same-sex marriage are using the 'sanctity of marriage', then why aren't they trying to get divorce made illegal? ;)

robin1234 Apr 5th 2012 1:49 pm

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

Originally Posted by rallybug (Post 9990644)
I think that it's because, unfortunately, most of the financial and emotional benefits come from 'marriage', not 'civil unions' - things like being able to make decisions in a hospital for your loved one, etc.

The government should not be involved in marriage - everyone should have civil unions, and the law should be set up on that basis. If a couple (hetero or not) wish to then have a marriage ceremony in a religious institution, that is between the couple and the institution.

Of course, if the religious nut-jobs against same-sex marriage are using the 'sanctity of marriage', then why aren't they trying to get divorce made illegal? ;)

Yes I agree 100% ... and as I said, civil unions would need "ALL rights and obligations equivalent to marriage flowing from the union, including immigration rights." So this would include decisions for loved ones etc.

It's also notable that "red states" have much worse stats for marriage breakdown, divorce, domestic violence and other personal & relationship dysfunction than pesky, godless "blue states."

Rete Apr 5th 2012 2:02 pm

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 
Unconfuse me as to the UK differences legally between a religious wedding ceremony and a civil union ceremony?

Here in the US they are one and the same in terms of "rights" granted by the State giving the power to an individual to join two people together in a wedding ceremony. For example, both allow the other to make decisions in emergency situations at a hospital, both allow the other to become a participant of the others healthcare insurance, etc.

Is it that you just don't want to see any weddings / marriages performed by a clergy member?

WEBlue Apr 5th 2012 2:04 pm

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 
Yes, I don't think it has anythiing to do with wanting any particular kind of wedding, or with any *unusual* sense of entitlement. Gay people simply want the rights, not the ceremony. They want the right to marry whomever they wish and live with that person, & have that right legally upheld, as it is for heterosexual couples.

Civil unions are fine, as long as they are legally upheld for homosexuals as well as heterosexuals across the board, such as for immigration purposes. The UK can do this, but the US does not . . . .

Anian Apr 5th 2012 6:27 pm

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 
Why should straight couples be allowed a religious wedding but gay couples not? I'm not saying that churches should be forced to marry gay people, but if a church is willing then there is no reason that they shouldn't be able to do it.

The whole civil vs marriage thing is silly anyway, they should all just be marriage. It's not like there is a strict definition of marriage being a religious thing only. I had a "civil union" wedding and no one has ever corrected me whenever I said I got married.

Uncle Ebenezer Apr 5th 2012 6:53 pm

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 
OK, can we stop talking about this now? All the hairs on my arms and the back of my neck are standing up.

robin1234 Apr 5th 2012 6:56 pm

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 
Definitely, it should be up to each religion, each denomination, each congregation .. and each minister to define what is acceptable to them and what is not.

But one issue here in the US is the federal DOMA which makes same sex marriages performed in foreign countries or some US states NOT fully equal to other marriages.

sir_eccles Apr 5th 2012 7:13 pm

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 
Ask yourself the following question:

Is it ok for a black man to marry a white woman or vice versa?

Yes, interracial marriages were banned in the US until relatively recently. Do you think it would be ok to limit interracial couples to having civil unions?

The over riding problem with this issue is there are rights at a federal level which conflict with rights at a state level. All have to be brought to the same point at the same time. I liken it to when they changed the drinking age to 21 where federal highway funds were withheld unless the states changed their drinking laws to match.

Sally Redux Apr 5th 2012 7:15 pm

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

Originally Posted by Anian (Post 9991092)
Why should straight couples be allowed a religious wedding but gay couples not? I'm not saying that churches should be forced to marry gay people, but if a church is willing then there is no reason that they shouldn't be able to do it.

The whole civil vs marriage thing is silly anyway, they should all just be marriage. It's not like there is a strict definition of marriage being a religious thing only. I had a "civil union" wedding and no one has ever corrected me whenever I said I got married.

Exactly.

BellaE Apr 5th 2012 8:07 pm

Re: Noncitizens sue federal government over gay marriage ban
 

Discuss? Let's hear your views on it first...then perhaps we'll discuss it.
As the parent of a gay child, I would like him to have the right to get really married (if he wanted to,) and by really married, I mean not just in one of a few states. And if he (a USC) married an immigrant, he should be able to sponsor that immigrant for a green card. I just don't understand why marriage is legislated at the state level, when so many federal regulations from taxation to immigration are dependent on marital status.


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