Nice Article on Dual Citizenship...
Jan 22nd 2008, 6:25 pm
#1
CA to TX to Jamaica
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2003
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Posts: 4,887
Nice Article on Dual Citizenship...
Let's say I want to work in the UK for a long time. Is it possible to obtain dual citizenship as an American and a British citizen? —djkatanarph
SDSTAFF Bricker replies:
Each country uses its own laws to define who its own citizens are. Countries traditionally recognize natural-born citizens using standards based on at least one of two concepts: jus soli, legal Latin for "right of the soil," meaning that a citizen is someone born within the country's territory, or jus sanguinis, "right of blood," meaning a citizen is someone born to one or more parents who are citizens.
We can see immediately, then, that it's possible for a person to have equally legitimate claims to citizenship in two countries at once: imagine a child born in the United States to, say, Italian parents. The U.S. is a jus soli nation (though not exclusively – jus sanguinis operates as well, within certain restrictions), and automatically recognizes as a citizen anyone born inside its borders; Italy is a jus sanguinis nation and recognizes as a citizen anyone born to Italian citizens. Someone who, like this hypothetical child, can claim citizenship in two nations is said to be a dual citizen.
See link for full article. It does go on to specifically discuss US/UK duality.
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/...tizenship.html
SDSTAFF Bricker replies:
Each country uses its own laws to define who its own citizens are. Countries traditionally recognize natural-born citizens using standards based on at least one of two concepts: jus soli, legal Latin for "right of the soil," meaning that a citizen is someone born within the country's territory, or jus sanguinis, "right of blood," meaning a citizen is someone born to one or more parents who are citizens.
We can see immediately, then, that it's possible for a person to have equally legitimate claims to citizenship in two countries at once: imagine a child born in the United States to, say, Italian parents. The U.S. is a jus soli nation (though not exclusively – jus sanguinis operates as well, within certain restrictions), and automatically recognizes as a citizen anyone born inside its borders; Italy is a jus sanguinis nation and recognizes as a citizen anyone born to Italian citizens. Someone who, like this hypothetical child, can claim citizenship in two nations is said to be a dual citizen.
See link for full article. It does go on to specifically discuss US/UK duality.
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/...tizenship.html
Jan 23rd 2008, 1:51 am
#2
Cpl Tony
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 92
Re: Nice Article on Dual Citizenship...
From the article...
So you can say you're renouncing to the US, but as its not enforced you don't need to officially renounce it to the UK authorities?
While its not enforced, I wonder if it was to be enforced in the future what it would hold in store for those toting dual citizenship.
This is a little too vague in my opinion and will require more research.
But its interesting never the less. Thanks for posting.
Since you ask about the United States and the United Kingdom, though, let's take a closer look at that particular example. A citizen of the UK must renounce his UK citizenship before being naturalized as a U.S. citizen. This renunciation isn't, however, enforced in any substantive way by U.S. law; it essentially consists of the first clause of the oath taken by all naturalized citizens: "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen." So since the UK does not treat this as a true renunciation, the individual taking the oath will effectively become a U.S. citizen under U.S. law while remaining a UK citizen under UK law.
While its not enforced, I wonder if it was to be enforced in the future what it would hold in store for those toting dual citizenship.
This is a little too vague in my opinion and will require more research.
But its interesting never the less. Thanks for posting.
Jan 23rd 2008, 1:51 am
#3
Retired
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 34,649
Re: Nice Article on Dual Citizenship...
Quoted:
"U.S. statutory and case law provides that anyone who obtains naturalization in a foreign state loses U.S. citizenship, but only if this was done "with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality." So it's possible to pull this off – you could argue that you had no intention of losing your U.S. citizenship when you became a naturalized UK citizen – although it's an obviously risky move. If your claim is not found to be credible by the judge hearing your case, you could soon find yourself sitting in the UK, still a plain old single citizen."
Glaring omission here, in that there is no mention of State Dept policy on this:
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizens...nship_778.html
ADMINISTRATIVE STANDARD OF EVIDENCE
As already noted, the actions listed above can cause loss of U.S. citizenship only if performed voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship. The Department has a uniform administrative standard of evidence based on the premise that U.S. citizens intend to retain United States citizenship when they obtain naturalization in a foreign state, subscribe to routine declarations of allegiance to a foreign state, or accept non-policy level employment with a foreign government.
"U.S. statutory and case law provides that anyone who obtains naturalization in a foreign state loses U.S. citizenship, but only if this was done "with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality." So it's possible to pull this off – you could argue that you had no intention of losing your U.S. citizenship when you became a naturalized UK citizen – although it's an obviously risky move. If your claim is not found to be credible by the judge hearing your case, you could soon find yourself sitting in the UK, still a plain old single citizen."
Glaring omission here, in that there is no mention of State Dept policy on this:
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizens...nship_778.html
ADMINISTRATIVE STANDARD OF EVIDENCE
As already noted, the actions listed above can cause loss of U.S. citizenship only if performed voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship. The Department has a uniform administrative standard of evidence based on the premise that U.S. citizens intend to retain United States citizenship when they obtain naturalization in a foreign state, subscribe to routine declarations of allegiance to a foreign state, or accept non-policy level employment with a foreign government.
Jan 23rd 2008, 1:54 am
#4
Retired
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 34,649
Re: Nice Article on Dual Citizenship...
From the article...
So you can say you're renouncing to the US, but as its not enforced you don't need to officially renounce it to the UK authorities?
While its not enforced, I wonder if it was to be enforced in the future what it would hold in store for those toting dual citizenship.
This is a little too vague in my opinion and will require more research.
So you can say you're renouncing to the US, but as its not enforced you don't need to officially renounce it to the UK authorities?
While its not enforced, I wonder if it was to be enforced in the future what it would hold in store for those toting dual citizenship.
This is a little too vague in my opinion and will require more research.
First thing to bear in mind is that once you are a U.S. citizen the United States will treat you as if you are solely a United States citizen. Your dealings with foreign governments are your own business so long as they do not conflict with your obligations as a U.S. citizen (tax, Selective Service, using a U.S. passport etc).
Secondly, there is no way the U.S. would wish to "enforce" something like this as many countries make it impossible for their citizens to cease to be citizens, even if they want to. So a formal renunciation requirement would effectively give foreign governments a veto over who can and cannot become a United States citizen and the U.S. is unlikely ever to legislate for this.
Jan 23rd 2008, 7:50 pm
#5
Account Closed
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 16,266
Re: Nice Article on Dual Citizenship...
Quoted:
"U.S. statutory and case law provides that anyone who obtains naturalization in a foreign state loses U.S. citizenship, but only if this was done "with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality." So it's possible to pull this off – you could argue that you had no intention of losing your U.S. citizenship when you became a naturalized UK citizen – although it's an obviously risky move. If your claim is not found to be credible by the judge hearing your case, you could soon find yourself sitting in the UK, still a plain old single citizen."
Glaring omission here, in that there is no mention of State Dept policy on this:
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizens...nship_778.html
ADMINISTRATIVE STANDARD OF EVIDENCE
As already noted, the actions listed above can cause loss of U.S. citizenship only if performed voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship. The Department has a uniform administrative standard of evidence based on the premise that U.S. citizens intend to retain United States citizenship when they obtain naturalization in a foreign state, subscribe to routine declarations of allegiance to a foreign state, or accept non-policy level employment with a foreign government.
"U.S. statutory and case law provides that anyone who obtains naturalization in a foreign state loses U.S. citizenship, but only if this was done "with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality." So it's possible to pull this off – you could argue that you had no intention of losing your U.S. citizenship when you became a naturalized UK citizen – although it's an obviously risky move. If your claim is not found to be credible by the judge hearing your case, you could soon find yourself sitting in the UK, still a plain old single citizen."
Glaring omission here, in that there is no mention of State Dept policy on this:
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizens...nship_778.html
ADMINISTRATIVE STANDARD OF EVIDENCE
As already noted, the actions listed above can cause loss of U.S. citizenship only if performed voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship. The Department has a uniform administrative standard of evidence based on the premise that U.S. citizens intend to retain United States citizenship when they obtain naturalization in a foreign state, subscribe to routine declarations of allegiance to a foreign state, or accept non-policy level employment with a foreign government.
I don't see the "glaring admission" you mention. They are perfectly consistent. I've mentioned this case elsewhere, but in the Third Circuit there was a series of decisions involving one Johann Breyer. It they are out to get you for some reason, it is possible to find expatriation. Mr. Breyer worked on the staff of nice places known as Auschwitz and Buchenwald in 1944. He was born of a American Citizen mother in 1925. Under the statute at the time, you could only derive citizenship from American fathers. Nearly 50 years after Mr. Breyer's criminal acts, the law under which he was born was found to be unconstitutional. Although Mr. Breyer did know he was a US citizen, the 3rd Circuit found that there could be acts which are so inconsistent with American citizenship, they could be expatriating even if there was no knowledge of what one had. [Mr. Breyer finally was one Nazi war criminal who was allowed to stay].
Jan 24th 2008, 4:39 pm
#6
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Sep 2006
Location: Andover, MA
Posts: 1,703
Re: Nice Article on Dual Citizenship...
My wife has a nice story of sorts about dual citizenship...
She's a USC, but when in the UK she had her US passport stolen. So she went to the US Embassy in London to get a replacement. She saw the "US Citizen" and "Other" line there. As you can probably imagine, the "US Citizen" line was nice and short and she started walking towards that. At which point an official said "Just the one line today, get in with the others". My wife just calmly moved over to the other line, with only the most minor of irritation that this was obviously all going to take a little longer to get through security, etc. But not the end of the world.
After standing for a few mins another American comes power walking into view, cell phone in hand. She also starts storming towards the "US Citizen" line and is again told to get in line with the others. She puts the cell phone aside for a few seconds to say "But I'm American, surely I go in this line". You can probably imagine the dialogue... a little tit-for-tat debate ensues and after a min or so she stands in line with the others, looking fairly miffed with life.
Once inside, as my wife is sorting out her passport drama, she hears the same woman talking to the worker behind the counter: "I am British, I want to renounce my American citizenship!". The worker was struggling a little to know what do with this (clearly not well versed in such things) but the woman repeated at an even higher volume "I am here to renounce my citizenship... I am British!"
What I found mightily amusing about this story, is that she was clearly the self-entitled American we all know and love, right up until the last minute
I also thought it funny that, since she was in line with all the potential US immigrants, they must have been mightily impressed to hear someone trying to do the complete opposite of what they were spending years and probably thousands of dollars on trying to achieve!
She's a USC, but when in the UK she had her US passport stolen. So she went to the US Embassy in London to get a replacement. She saw the "US Citizen" and "Other" line there. As you can probably imagine, the "US Citizen" line was nice and short and she started walking towards that. At which point an official said "Just the one line today, get in with the others". My wife just calmly moved over to the other line, with only the most minor of irritation that this was obviously all going to take a little longer to get through security, etc. But not the end of the world.
After standing for a few mins another American comes power walking into view, cell phone in hand. She also starts storming towards the "US Citizen" line and is again told to get in line with the others. She puts the cell phone aside for a few seconds to say "But I'm American, surely I go in this line". You can probably imagine the dialogue... a little tit-for-tat debate ensues and after a min or so she stands in line with the others, looking fairly miffed with life.
Once inside, as my wife is sorting out her passport drama, she hears the same woman talking to the worker behind the counter: "I am British, I want to renounce my American citizenship!". The worker was struggling a little to know what do with this (clearly not well versed in such things) but the woman repeated at an even higher volume "I am here to renounce my citizenship... I am British!"
What I found mightily amusing about this story, is that she was clearly the self-entitled American we all know and love, right up until the last minute
I also thought it funny that, since she was in line with all the potential US immigrants, they must have been mightily impressed to hear someone trying to do the complete opposite of what they were spending years and probably thousands of dollars on trying to achieve!
