National Insurance
Sep 8th 2012, 3:45 pm
#91
Account Closed
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 24
Re: National Insurance/US SS/WEP on earned UK Pensions
Ric Robson, who has substantial experience in group pensions, pension administration, pension plan design and legal constructs, has researched WEP and finds it illegal/unconstitutional as it has effectively blindsided Congress and converted FICA insurance premiums into a General Income tax ...
To quote Ric: "Any insurer (like the U.S. Federal Government & its Social Security Administration) that collects a defined contribution for a defined benefit, A BENEFIT THAT IT KNEW FROM THE OUTSET WOULD NOT BE PAID, must refund the overpayment of insurance premium , (as it does in the case of annual overpayments of FICA when one works two or more SSA covered jobs and exceeds the annual FICA premium) ...
... otherwise, the retention of insurance premiums for a benefit that the SSA knew would never be paid, constitutes insurer fraud...
AND, Alison Shelton, Congress Research Service, (THE organization that clarifies congressional legislation for agencies), states that WEP cannot apply to those covered by international Agreements on Pensions. PERIOD"
If you are interested in more information, please contact Ric directly at: [email protected]
To quote Ric: "Any insurer (like the U.S. Federal Government & its Social Security Administration) that collects a defined contribution for a defined benefit, A BENEFIT THAT IT KNEW FROM THE OUTSET WOULD NOT BE PAID, must refund the overpayment of insurance premium , (as it does in the case of annual overpayments of FICA when one works two or more SSA covered jobs and exceeds the annual FICA premium) ...
... otherwise, the retention of insurance premiums for a benefit that the SSA knew would never be paid, constitutes insurer fraud...
AND, Alison Shelton, Congress Research Service, (THE organization that clarifies congressional legislation for agencies), states that WEP cannot apply to those covered by international Agreements on Pensions. PERIOD"
If you are interested in more information, please contact Ric directly at: [email protected]
Sep 9th 2012, 9:37 pm
#92
Forum Regular
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: Poway, CA
Posts: 115
Re: National Insurance
@mattlmt - many thanks for the update and info.
Sep 9th 2012, 11:11 pm
#93
Account Closed
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 24
Re: National Insurance/US SS/WEP on earned UK Pensions
Ric Robson, who has substantial experience in group pensions, pension administration, pension plan design and legal constructs, has researched WEP and finds it illegal/unconstitutional as it has effectively blindsided Congress and converted FICA insurance premiums into a General Income tax ...
To quote Ric: "Any insurer (like the U.S. Federal Government & its Social Security Administration) that collects a defined contribution for a defined benefit, A BENEFIT THAT IT KNEW FROM THE OUTSET WOULD NOT BE PAID, must refund the overpayment of insurance premium , (as it does in the case of annual overpayments of FICA when one works two or more SSA covered jobs and exceeds the annual FICA premium) ...
... otherwise, the retention of insurance premiums for a benefit that the SSA knew would never be paid, constitutes insurer fraud...
AND, Alison Shelton, Congress Research Service, (THE organization that clarifies congressional legislation for agencies), states that WEP cannot apply to those covered by international Agreements on Pensions. PERIOD"
If you are interested in more information, please contact Ric directly at: [email protected]
To quote Ric: "Any insurer (like the U.S. Federal Government & its Social Security Administration) that collects a defined contribution for a defined benefit, A BENEFIT THAT IT KNEW FROM THE OUTSET WOULD NOT BE PAID, must refund the overpayment of insurance premium , (as it does in the case of annual overpayments of FICA when one works two or more SSA covered jobs and exceeds the annual FICA premium) ...
... otherwise, the retention of insurance premiums for a benefit that the SSA knew would never be paid, constitutes insurer fraud...
AND, Alison Shelton, Congress Research Service, (THE organization that clarifies congressional legislation for agencies), states that WEP cannot apply to those covered by international Agreements on Pensions. PERIOD"
If you are interested in more information, please contact Ric directly at: [email protected]
WEP applied to foreign pensions worked before a person emigrates to the United States is "legal fraud" on so many levels, including ironically no representation, no legal status in the United States at the time the work for that pension was performed, and discrimination based on Origin.
Although SSA has its selective stated reasoning for WEP as an equivalency mechanism, its logic is off regarding pre-emigration worked pensions.
An example: Two US Citizens - one born in the United States, the other born in the UK. Both do the same type of job for 20 years and receive $1,000 per month in SS benefits. Both do not achieve the 30 years US Substantial Earnings Threshold.
The UK born US Citizen worked before his/her emigration for ten years and is entitled to a UK State pension from that work. That UK pension will be subject to WEP.
The American born US Citizen, unlike the UK born US Citizen, had the opportunity to work thirty years substantial earnings but did not and is not subject to WEP or any discrimination.
So the UK born US Citizen will have worked thirty years combined in the UK/US and, with the addition of full US taxation on their UK Pension, may actually receive less combined benefit than the US born citizen who worked twenty years!
Sep 10th 2012, 1:24 am
#94
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,754
Re: National Insurance/US SS/WEP on earned UK Pensions
You're welcome, Matt.
WEP applied to foreign pensions worked before a person emigrates to the United States is "legal fraud" on so many levels, including ironically no representation, no legal status in the United States at the time the work for that pension was performed, and discrimination based on Origin.
Although SSA has its selective stated reasoning for WEP as an equivalency mechanism, its logic is off regarding pre-emigration worked pensions.
An example: Two US Citizens - one born in the United States, the other born in the UK. Both do the same type of job for 20 years and receive $1,000 per month in SS benefits. Both do not achieve the 30 years US Substantial Earnings Threshold.
The UK born US Citizen worked before his/her emigration for ten years and is entitled to a UK State pension from that work. That UK pension will be subject to WEP.
The American born US Citizen, unlike the UK born US Citizen, had the opportunity to work thirty years substantial earnings but did not and is not subject to WEP or any discrimination.
So the UK born US Citizen will have worked thirty years combined in the UK/US and, with the addition of full US taxation on their UK Pension, may actually receive less combined benefit than the US born citizen who worked twenty years!
WEP applied to foreign pensions worked before a person emigrates to the United States is "legal fraud" on so many levels, including ironically no representation, no legal status in the United States at the time the work for that pension was performed, and discrimination based on Origin.
Although SSA has its selective stated reasoning for WEP as an equivalency mechanism, its logic is off regarding pre-emigration worked pensions.
An example: Two US Citizens - one born in the United States, the other born in the UK. Both do the same type of job for 20 years and receive $1,000 per month in SS benefits. Both do not achieve the 30 years US Substantial Earnings Threshold.
The UK born US Citizen worked before his/her emigration for ten years and is entitled to a UK State pension from that work. That UK pension will be subject to WEP.
The American born US Citizen, unlike the UK born US Citizen, had the opportunity to work thirty years substantial earnings but did not and is not subject to WEP or any discrimination.
So the UK born US Citizen will have worked thirty years combined in the UK/US and, with the addition of full US taxation on their UK Pension, may actually receive less combined benefit than the US born citizen who worked twenty years!
Right now I have 3 years of UK NI contributions when I lived there and 27 years of voluntary contributions, so 3/30ths of my UK state pension will be used in WEP calculations. However, I also have 10 years non-SS employment in the US and the pension I'll get form that means that I'll be fully WEPed on my 17 years of SS employment.
Sep 10th 2012, 3:14 am
#95
Account Closed
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 24
Re: National Insurance
Nun, were your three years of UK NI Contributions, Class 1, worked after April 5, 1975? The UK changed to earned NI contributions after that date.
Sep 10th 2012, 4:07 am
#96
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,754
Re: National Insurance
No I think they were class 3 that I was credited with when I was 16, 17 and 18 years old. Thinking about it maybe they don't count for WEP either as there were not associated with any non SS wages. Whatever, my US non-SS wage pension means that I will be maximally WEPed.
Last edited by nun; Sep 10th 2012 at 4:15 am.
Sep 10th 2012, 5:09 am
#97
Account Closed
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 24
Re: National Insurance
Well for what it's worth that will help a little bit as you will not have any WEP on your UK pension as it's all voluntary or credit based.
Sorry to hear about the State pension. I hope the reduction is not too vicious!
Sorry to hear about the State pension. I hope the reduction is not too vicious!
Sep 10th 2012, 11:28 am
#98
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,754
Re: National Insurance
I'll be WEPed the maximum amount because of the size of the state pension. So that would be $383.30/month today, but I have to project into the future. Using the SSA WEP calculator, assuming I take SS at 66 and in future dollars I will get $2000/month rather than the unWEPed amount which would be $2600/month.
Sep 10th 2012, 4:34 pm
#99
Account Closed
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 24
Re: National Insurance
I'll be WEPed the maximum amount because of the size of the state pension. So that would be $383.30/month today, but I have to project into the future. Using the SSA WEP calculator, assuming I take SS at 66 and in future dollars I will get $2000/month rather than the unWEPed amount which would be $2600/month.
Sep 10th 2012, 4:45 pm
#101
Account Closed
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 24
Re: National Insurance/US SS/WEP on earned UK Pensions
Ric Robson, who has substantial experience in group pensions, pension administration, pension plan design and legal constructs, has researched WEP and finds it illegal/unconstitutional as it has effectively blindsided Congress and converted FICA insurance premiums into a General Income tax ...
To quote Ric: "Any insurer (like the U.S. Federal Government & its Social Security Administration) that collects a defined contribution for a defined benefit, A BENEFIT THAT IT KNEW FROM THE OUTSET WOULD NOT BE PAID, must refund the overpayment of insurance premium , (as it does in the case of annual overpayments of FICA when one works two or more SSA covered jobs and exceeds the annual FICA premium) ...
... otherwise, the retention of insurance premiums for a benefit that the SSA knew would never be paid, constitutes insurer fraud...
AND, Alison Shelton, Congress Research Service, (THE organization that clarifies congressional legislation for agencies), states that WEP cannot apply to those covered by international Agreements on Pensions. PERIOD"
If you are interested in more information, please contact Ric directly at: [email protected]
To quote Ric: "Any insurer (like the U.S. Federal Government & its Social Security Administration) that collects a defined contribution for a defined benefit, A BENEFIT THAT IT KNEW FROM THE OUTSET WOULD NOT BE PAID, must refund the overpayment of insurance premium , (as it does in the case of annual overpayments of FICA when one works two or more SSA covered jobs and exceeds the annual FICA premium) ...
... otherwise, the retention of insurance premiums for a benefit that the SSA knew would never be paid, constitutes insurer fraud...
AND, Alison Shelton, Congress Research Service, (THE organization that clarifies congressional legislation for agencies), states that WEP cannot apply to those covered by international Agreements on Pensions. PERIOD"
If you are interested in more information, please contact Ric directly at: [email protected]
-------------------------------------------
1) the "substantial earnings" requirement is off-base by SSA on two points
i) the PURPOSE of Agreements on Pensions IS TO EQUATE AS SYNONYMOUS "social security" = ANY GOVT PENSION ... ie: "U.S. Social Security (in capitals !) in the case of U.S. and "Canada Pension" in the case of Canada, and "NI (?)" in the case of Britain, etc.
... the WEP legislation and definitions of "social security" ARE NOT CAPITALIZED in the U.S. legislation... THEREFORE ALL government pension time credits from ANY country with which the U.S. has an international Agreement on Pensions applies
ii) The SSA ADMITS that it's illegal to apply WEP to anyone covered by an Agreement on Pensions ... therefore they proceeded to concoct OTHER FORMULA that the SSA applies UNILATERALLY to foreign pensions (NOT TO U.S. pensions...) thereby creating a windfall for the SSA at the expense of another participating nations pension system
iii) many people PRESUME that FEDERAL REGULATIONS and SSA Policies are LAW ... THEY ARE NOT !!!!!! The SSA Commissioner is empowered by the U.S. President to put in place any policies and regulations that are deemed "reasonable" in the administration of the plan..
... and many folks are complaining about the "unfairness" of the SSA's procedures ... it's "unfair" for sure, but "whining" or "playing SSA's game" is NOT GOING TO RESULT IN A POSITIVE OUTCOME... The only chance for success is via the illegality of SSA's position w.r.t. international Agreements on Pensions ... AND the unconstitutionality of WEP in the first place (this latter argument involves about 1,500,000 non-migrant U.S. citizens where the international situation applies to about 500,000 ... a total of 2,000,000 people in all.
... THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE THE COMMISSIONER's ABSOLUTE VIOLATION OF LAW and or INTERNATIONAL Agreements on Pensions that the U.S. CONGRESS has entered into and obligated the U.S. Federal Government to abide.
IF YOU NEED MY HELP... Please contact me at [email protected] so that I can "funnel" all requests and not have to be checking dozens of e-threads from folks of countries all over the world...
-----------------------------------------
You may also want to sign this small petition: http://signon.org/sign/social-securi...mt&r_by=695993
Sep 10th 2012, 4:55 pm
#102
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,754
Re: National Insurance
Mr Robson's postings do have a bit of a zealous feeling to them. Other than arcane arguments and logic has he done anything to bring these issues to the attention of anyone in Congress?
Sep 10th 2012, 5:07 pm
#103
Account Closed
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 24
Re: National Insurance
Indeed they do! Yes, he's been in touch with a number of people in Congress and with the SSA.
