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National Insurance

Old Sep 8th 2012, 3:45 pm
  #91  
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Default Re: National Insurance/US SS/WEP on earned UK Pensions

Ric Robson, who has substantial experience in group pensions, pension administration, pension plan design and legal constructs, has researched WEP and finds it illegal/unconstitutional as it has effectively blindsided Congress and converted FICA insurance premiums into a General Income tax ...

To quote Ric: "Any insurer (like the U.S. Federal Government & its Social Security Administration) that collects a defined contribution for a defined benefit, A BENEFIT THAT IT KNEW FROM THE OUTSET WOULD NOT BE PAID, must refund the overpayment of insurance premium , (as it does in the case of annual overpayments of FICA when one works two or more SSA covered jobs and exceeds the annual FICA premium) ...

... otherwise, the retention of insurance premiums for a benefit that the SSA knew would never be paid, constitutes insurer fraud...

AND, Alison Shelton, Congress Research Service, (THE organization that clarifies congressional legislation for agencies), states that WEP cannot apply to those covered by international Agreements on Pensions. PERIOD"

If you are interested in more information, please contact Ric directly at: [email protected]
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Old Sep 9th 2012, 9:37 pm
  #92  
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Default Re: National Insurance

@mattlmt - many thanks for the update and info.
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Old Sep 9th 2012, 11:11 pm
  #93  
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Default Re: National Insurance/US SS/WEP on earned UK Pensions

Originally Posted by mattlmt View Post
Ric Robson, who has substantial experience in group pensions, pension administration, pension plan design and legal constructs, has researched WEP and finds it illegal/unconstitutional as it has effectively blindsided Congress and converted FICA insurance premiums into a General Income tax ...

To quote Ric: "Any insurer (like the U.S. Federal Government & its Social Security Administration) that collects a defined contribution for a defined benefit, A BENEFIT THAT IT KNEW FROM THE OUTSET WOULD NOT BE PAID, must refund the overpayment of insurance premium , (as it does in the case of annual overpayments of FICA when one works two or more SSA covered jobs and exceeds the annual FICA premium) ...

... otherwise, the retention of insurance premiums for a benefit that the SSA knew would never be paid, constitutes insurer fraud...

AND, Alison Shelton, Congress Research Service, (THE organization that clarifies congressional legislation for agencies), states that WEP cannot apply to those covered by international Agreements on Pensions. PERIOD"

If you are interested in more information, please contact Ric directly at: [email protected]
You're welcome, Matt.

WEP applied to foreign pensions worked before a person emigrates to the United States is "legal fraud" on so many levels, including ironically no representation, no legal status in the United States at the time the work for that pension was performed, and discrimination based on Origin.

Although SSA has its selective stated reasoning for WEP as an equivalency mechanism, its logic is off regarding pre-emigration worked pensions.

An example: Two US Citizens - one born in the United States, the other born in the UK. Both do the same type of job for 20 years and receive $1,000 per month in SS benefits. Both do not achieve the 30 years US Substantial Earnings Threshold.

The UK born US Citizen worked before his/her emigration for ten years and is entitled to a UK State pension from that work. That UK pension will be subject to WEP.

The American born US Citizen, unlike the UK born US Citizen, had the opportunity to work thirty years substantial earnings but did not and is not subject to WEP or any discrimination.

So the UK born US Citizen will have worked thirty years combined in the UK/US and, with the addition of full US taxation on their UK Pension, may actually receive less combined benefit than the US born citizen who worked twenty years!
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Old Sep 10th 2012, 1:24 am
  #94  
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Default Re: National Insurance/US SS/WEP on earned UK Pensions

Originally Posted by mattlmt View Post
You're welcome, Matt.

WEP applied to foreign pensions worked before a person emigrates to the United States is "legal fraud" on so many levels, including ironically no representation, no legal status in the United States at the time the work for that pension was performed, and discrimination based on Origin.

Although SSA has its selective stated reasoning for WEP as an equivalency mechanism, its logic is off regarding pre-emigration worked pensions.

An example: Two US Citizens - one born in the United States, the other born in the UK. Both do the same type of job for 20 years and receive $1,000 per month in SS benefits. Both do not achieve the 30 years US Substantial Earnings Threshold.

The UK born US Citizen worked before his/her emigration for ten years and is entitled to a UK State pension from that work. That UK pension will be subject to WEP.

The American born US Citizen, unlike the UK born US Citizen, had the opportunity to work thirty years substantial earnings but did not and is not subject to WEP or any discrimination.

So the UK born US Citizen will have worked thirty years combined in the UK/US and, with the addition of full US taxation on their UK Pension, may actually receive less combined benefit than the US born citizen who worked twenty years!
Yes, but the UK born US citizen has a non-SS pension. The WEP rules may seem unfair when applied to overseas pensions, but they weren't designed for those but the wording or WEP drags them in. If you want to see Congress/SSA change the rules get lobbying.

Right now I have 3 years of UK NI contributions when I lived there and 27 years of voluntary contributions, so 3/30ths of my UK state pension will be used in WEP calculations. However, I also have 10 years non-SS employment in the US and the pension I'll get form that means that I'll be fully WEPed on my 17 years of SS employment.
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Old Sep 10th 2012, 3:14 am
  #95  
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Default Re: National Insurance

Nun, were your three years of UK NI Contributions, Class 1, worked after April 5, 1975? The UK changed to earned NI contributions after that date.
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Old Sep 10th 2012, 4:07 am
  #96  
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Default Re: National Insurance

Originally Posted by mattlmt View Post
Nun, were your three years of UK NI Contributions, Class 1, worked after April 5, 1975? The UK changed to earned NI contributions after that date.
No I think they were class 3 that I was credited with when I was 16, 17 and 18 years old. Thinking about it maybe they don't count for WEP either as there were not associated with any non SS wages. Whatever, my US non-SS wage pension means that I will be maximally WEPed.

Last edited by nun; Sep 10th 2012 at 4:15 am.
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Old Sep 10th 2012, 5:09 am
  #97  
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Default Re: National Insurance

Well for what it's worth that will help a little bit as you will not have any WEP on your UK pension as it's all voluntary or credit based.

Sorry to hear about the State pension. I hope the reduction is not too vicious!
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Old Sep 10th 2012, 11:28 am
  #98  
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Default Re: National Insurance

Originally Posted by mattlmt View Post
Well for what it's worth that will help a little bit as you will not have any WEP on your UK pension as it's all voluntary or credit based.

Sorry to hear about the State pension. I hope the reduction is not too vicious!
I'll be WEPed the maximum amount because of the size of the state pension. So that would be $383.30/month today, but I have to project into the future. Using the SSA WEP calculator, assuming I take SS at 66 and in future dollars I will get $2000/month rather than the unWEPed amount which would be $2600/month.
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Old Sep 10th 2012, 4:34 pm
  #99  
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Default Re: National Insurance

Originally Posted by nun View Post
I'll be WEPed the maximum amount because of the size of the state pension. So that would be $383.30/month today, but I have to project into the future. Using the SSA WEP calculator, assuming I take SS at 66 and in future dollars I will get $2000/month rather than the unWEPed amount which would be $2600/month.
Unless you make it to thirty years US substantial earnings?
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Old Sep 10th 2012, 4:42 pm
  #100  
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Default Re: National Insurance

Originally Posted by mattlmt View Post
Unless you make it to thirty years US substantial earnings?
Yes, but that would take another 13 years and I think I'll be retiring from my state job, so there'll be no more SS FICA contributions in my future.
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Old Sep 10th 2012, 4:45 pm
  #101  
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Default Re: National Insurance/US SS/WEP on earned UK Pensions

Originally Posted by mattlmt View Post
Ric Robson, who has substantial experience in group pensions, pension administration, pension plan design and legal constructs, has researched WEP and finds it illegal/unconstitutional as it has effectively blindsided Congress and converted FICA insurance premiums into a General Income tax ...

To quote Ric: "Any insurer (like the U.S. Federal Government & its Social Security Administration) that collects a defined contribution for a defined benefit, A BENEFIT THAT IT KNEW FROM THE OUTSET WOULD NOT BE PAID, must refund the overpayment of insurance premium , (as it does in the case of annual overpayments of FICA when one works two or more SSA covered jobs and exceeds the annual FICA premium) ...

... otherwise, the retention of insurance premiums for a benefit that the SSA knew would never be paid, constitutes insurer fraud...

AND, Alison Shelton, Congress Research Service, (THE organization that clarifies congressional legislation for agencies), states that WEP cannot apply to those covered by international Agreements on Pensions. PERIOD"

If you are interested in more information, please contact Ric directly at: [email protected]
Here's update from Ric Robson that may help.
-------------------------------------------

1) the "substantial earnings" requirement is off-base by SSA on two points
i) the PURPOSE of Agreements on Pensions IS TO EQUATE AS SYNONYMOUS "social security" = ANY GOVT PENSION ... ie: "U.S. Social Security (in capitals !) in the case of U.S. and "Canada Pension" in the case of Canada, and "NI (?)" in the case of Britain, etc.
... the WEP legislation and definitions of "social security" ARE NOT CAPITALIZED in the U.S. legislation... THEREFORE ALL government pension time credits from ANY country with which the U.S. has an international Agreement on Pensions applies
ii) The SSA ADMITS that it's illegal to apply WEP to anyone covered by an Agreement on Pensions ... therefore they proceeded to concoct OTHER FORMULA that the SSA applies UNILATERALLY to foreign pensions (NOT TO U.S. pensions...) thereby creating a windfall for the SSA at the expense of another participating nations pension system
iii) many people PRESUME that FEDERAL REGULATIONS and SSA Policies are LAW ... THEY ARE NOT !!!!!! The SSA Commissioner is empowered by the U.S. President to put in place any policies and regulations that are deemed "reasonable" in the administration of the plan..

... and many folks are complaining about the "unfairness" of the SSA's procedures ... it's "unfair" for sure, but "whining" or "playing SSA's game" is NOT GOING TO RESULT IN A POSITIVE OUTCOME... The only chance for success is via the illegality of SSA's position w.r.t. international Agreements on Pensions ... AND the unconstitutionality of WEP in the first place (this latter argument involves about 1,500,000 non-migrant U.S. citizens where the international situation applies to about 500,000 ... a total of 2,000,000 people in all.

... THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE THE COMMISSIONER's ABSOLUTE VIOLATION OF LAW and or INTERNATIONAL Agreements on Pensions that the U.S. CONGRESS has entered into and obligated the U.S. Federal Government to abide.

IF YOU NEED MY HELP... Please contact me at [email protected] so that I can "funnel" all requests and not have to be checking dozens of e-threads from folks of countries all over the world...

-----------------------------------------
You may also want to sign this small petition: http://signon.org/sign/social-securi...mt&r_by=695993
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Old Sep 10th 2012, 4:55 pm
  #102  
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Default Re: National Insurance

Mr Robson's postings do have a bit of a zealous feeling to them. Other than arcane arguments and logic has he done anything to bring these issues to the attention of anyone in Congress?
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Old Sep 10th 2012, 5:07 pm
  #103  
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Default Re: National Insurance

Originally Posted by nun View Post
Mr Robson's postings do have a bit of a zealous feeling to them. Other than arcane arguments and logic has he done anything to bring these issues to the attention of anyone in Congress?
Indeed they do! Yes, he's been in touch with a number of people in Congress and with the SSA.
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Old Sep 10th 2012, 5:56 pm
  #104  
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Default Re: National Insurance

Originally Posted by mattlmt View Post
Indeed they do! Yes, he's been in touch with a number of people in Congress and with the SSA.
Is he getting any traction or is he just screen as a bit of a crank....
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