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Money transfer from UK

Money transfer from UK

Old Apr 16th 2019, 8:36 pm
  #16  
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Default Re: Money transfer from UK

Maybe.
Maybe not.
Like any business.
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Old Apr 16th 2019, 8:52 pm
  #17  
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Default Re: Money transfer from UK

Originally Posted by SpeshK View Post
You would think that they have to make money but in today’s economy, that’s not necessarily the case right? Look at the Uber IPO.

There are ways to make money by becoming the dominant player. You’re gonna gain lots of independent, uncorrelated aggressive order flow. It’s gonna be retail sized but with enough of it, sure. I don’t claim to know their business model but I can see money being made there.
There is only one thing there that you're correct about.

There are a few businesses that raised a huge amount of capital and/or have backers that are prepared to keeping contributing (I am not sure that "investing" is the right word) in subsequent funding rounds, and are prepared to burn their capital over a number of years. Lastminute.com was one of the first I remember that raised vastly more capital than they technically needed, but then burned it establishing themselves, including buying up their competition, or simply under-cutting the competition until the competition ran out of capital. There are other businesses that seem to have adopted this approach, but like it or not, sooner or later if you don't sell your products or services for more than it costs to make and deliver them, you will run out of money. You can dress up your "business model" with all sorts of fancy words, and blather on about "the new economy" and market share, but being a .com doesn't mean that you can rewrite basic economics nor conjure money out of thin air, and any business that can't eventually balance their books, selling for a margin over their costs, is doomed to fail, eventually.
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Old Apr 17th 2019, 1:19 am
  #18  
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Default Re: Money transfer from UK

Originally Posted by Pulaski View Post
There is only one thing there that you're correct about.

There are a few businesses that raised a huge amount of capital and/or have backers that are prepared to keeping contributing (I am not sure that "investing" is the right word) in subsequent funding rounds, and are prepared to burn their capital over a number of years. Lastminute.com was one of the first I remember that raised vastly more capital than they technically needed, but then burned it establishing themselves, including buying up their competition, or simply under-cutting the competition until the competition ran out of capital. There are other businesses that seem to have adopted this approach, but like it or not, sooner or later if you don't sell your products or services for more than it costs to make and deliver them, you will run out of money. You can dress up your "business model" with all sorts of fancy words, and blather on about "the new economy" and market share, but being a .com doesn't mean that you can rewrite basic economics nor conjure money out of thin air, and any business that can't eventually balance their books, selling for a margin over their costs, is doomed to fail, eventually.
Off topic but sure, some good points. There are lots of companies coming up for IPO and there will be lots of opinions about the viability of them.

It's incorrect to assert you can't make money from independent, uncorrelated order flow. That's exactly what you want if you're a market maker. In fact, there are times when it makes sense to do the opposite to charging fees (i.e. rebates). The more you get, the higher your potential profitability so yea, it could make sense. And yes, even at mid, it's possible to make money however counterintuitive it may seem.

And apologies for taking it off topic but re-reading the original post, for a large transfer such as a house sale proceeds, go for a broker. I'm sure there's advice around for brokers to use. Breaking that amount up to use something like Circle to save some fees doesn't make any sense.
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Old Apr 17th 2019, 1:23 am
  #19  
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Default Re: Money transfer from UK

Or wire.
I regularly, and internationally, transfer high 6 figures with Wells Fargo.
$45 flat fee.
Albeit $ to $, however wot Pulaski said...

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Old Apr 17th 2019, 1:41 am
  #20  
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Default Re: Money transfer from UK

Originally Posted by SpeshK View Post
…. Off topic but sure, some good points. There are lots of companies coming up for IPO and there will be lots of opinions about the viability of them.

It's incorrect to assert you can't make money from independent, uncorrelated order flow. That's exactly what you want if you're a market maker. In fact, there are times when it makes sense to do the opposite to charging fees (i.e. rebates). I know you don't have to make profits on every deal, but on average deals have to be profitable, otherwise your capital base is progressively eroded.

The more you get, the higher your potential profitability so yea, it could make sense. And yes, even at mid, it's possible to make money however counterintuitive it may seem. ….

You must be a millennial. Profits are not created by opinions or "order flows", nor is the viability of a company ultimately determined by opinions. A company cannot survive if does not make profits.

A few internet companies are not viable long term, and have survived this long on cash reserves and cash injections, eventually both will dry up. There are a few mighty big collapses to come - unless they find sources of income that exceed their cost base - that's not an opinion, it's basic accounting, with a pinch of corporate law.
…. And apologies for taking it off topic but re-reading the original post, for a large transfer such as a house sale proceeds, go for a broker. I'm sure there's advice around for brokers to use. Breaking that amount up to use something like Circle to save some fees doesn't make any sense.

For a large amount using a bank, as Hotscot said, and asking for a "dealing desk rate" would be competitive with an online broker, and may actually be cheaper.
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Old Apr 17th 2019, 2:34 am
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Default Re: Money transfer from UK

Originally Posted by Pulaski View Post
You must be a millennial. Profits are not created by opinions or "order flows", nor is the viability of a company ultimately determined by opinions. A company cannot survive if does not make profits.

A few internet companies are not viable long term, and have survived this long on cash reserves and cash injections, eventually both will dry up. There are a few mighty big collapses to come - unless they find sources of income that exceed their cost base - that's not an opinion, it's basic accounting, with a pinch of corporate law.

For a large amount using a bank, as Hotscot said, and asking for a "dealing desk rate" would be competitive with an online broker, and may actually be cheaper.
Heh, far from a millennial but hey, what's with the millennial hate? I wish I was a millennial (with all that literal flexibility)! You seem well read enough to understand how hard the next generation have it with housing costs being where they are, foreboding student debt and wage stagnation. It's very true that "internet companies" might not be viable long term. I'm in agreement with you there. The contrary view is far from "millennial" though. Perhaps some mobile home park investment might be more suitable for you? I jest ..

Profits can be made from order flows. How do banks and their capital markets businesses make their money? What happens when a client places a market FX order asking for the "dealing desk rate"? The fee (if charged at all) is only a small part of the profitability for the dealer. An order like Pandorica's house proceeds being shifted without any wider context of what's going on in the GBPUSD market is way more likely to be cleaner and profitable than an institutional FX investor timing their order to the millisecond (no offence Pandorica!). So yea, I could certainly see how a Circle/TransferWise might make money beyond fees.
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Old Apr 17th 2019, 4:11 am
  #22  
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Default Re: Money transfer from UK

Well, to be honest, you do sound like a 'new economy' millennial trying to obfuscate the whole profit/loss/debt amortization fundamentals with flowery meaningless language. Surprised you're not using 'synergy' and leverage'.
I mean...order flows? C'mon...
(And I say this as a 'very' successful businessman.'

Do you work for Circle? A cybercoin outfit? Or have some stake in promoting them?

No offense to you personally, really, but these posts are entertaining. It's just like being down the pub!
Do you work in the finance FinApp sector perchance?

Tell me the downside of wires.

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Old Apr 17th 2019, 5:31 am
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Default Re: Money transfer from UK

Originally Posted by Hotscot View Post
Well, to be honest, you do sound like a 'new economy' millennial trying to obfuscate the whole profit/loss fundamentals with flowery meaningless language. Surprised you're not using 'synergy' and leverage'.
I mean...order flows? C'mon...
(And I say this as a 'very' successful businessman.'

Do you work for Circle? Or have some stake in promoting them?

No offense to you personally but these posts are entertaining. It's just like being down the pub!
Do you work in the finance FinApp sector perchance?

Tell me the downside of wires.
Sure. It may sound flow-ery but it’s actually the technical term for it And hey, there's nothing with the term leverage That's a good and proper word I work in the industry although not in FX or for Circle for that matter. Or for a FinApp/FinTech. No stake either ... just trying to pass on some money saving advice. Try it out. Put in a $1000 into TransferWise and Circle and see what you get. It's not a huge difference but I'll take it where it comes. At time of writing, I get 760.50 GBP through TransferWise for $1000 USD. I can buy that same 760.50 GBP for $993.06 USD on Circle. That's like half a slice of avocado toast. Even if their business model is to throw away venture capital on an unrealistic notion of scale, let me be the recipient of it for more multigrain avocado toast! I guess that's no different to me being a very frequent Uber user as they sure aren't making money either but as a consumer, I'm taking advantage of unrealistically priced transportation.

Let me be very clear, there's nothing wrong with using a broker either. In fact, I should be actively encouraging it given what I do! It really depends on your use-case. For a large transaction like this one, it makes sense to use a broker because any fee should pale in comparison to the advice they can give you. I personally wouldn't simply ask for the "dealing desk rate" ... I'd ask them what's going on right now and use them for colour. Maybe it's a bad day for it. What's going on in forwards and options? (I apologise but there's no way around obfuscation genuinely trying to be helpful ... Google FX forwards and FX options). If I was moving the proceeds of a house which sounds like a pretty big deal, I'd want to be informed and advised to get the best deal for myself. There's potentially a whole lot of avocado toast to be had by timing it. You then assume the risk that the market may move against you but at least it's an informed decision rather than flying blind. Bear in mind, it's been very volatile with Brexit, Trump trying to take over the Fed, etc etc so even more reason to seek advice. I work in the industry and wouldn't move the proceeds of a house without consulting someone smarter than me.

Also bear in mind that the quoted "dealing desk rate" isn't necessarily going to be a wholesale price either. It's just the rate they're willing to deal with you at. It will be a function of the size of the order and your relationship with your broker. If it's a firm quote for a minute or two, it's definitely not the best they can do. They have to protect themselves against market movement and with a small transaction, will possibly see opportunity with you. It may be better to ask your broker to "work it" and possibly advise using an algo to secure you a better price if it's a large transaction. They're the professionals and you're paying for a service.

Also, mid has a variety of meanings. For simplicity's sake, TransferWise and Circle are close enough without getting technical. My point of reference is as someone who has refreshed TransferWise and Circle apps an unhealthy number of times whilst watching a Bloomberg terminal and where real markets are.
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Old Apr 17th 2019, 2:27 pm
  #24  
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Default Re: Money transfer from UK

Ok.
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Old Apr 17th 2019, 2:38 pm
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Default Re: Money transfer from UK

Originally Posted by SpeshK View Post
Heh, far from a millennial but hey, what's with the millennial hate? …. I wish I was a millennial (with all that literal flexibility)! You seem well read enough to understand how hard the next generation have it with housing costs being where they are, foreboding student debt and wage stagnation. It's very true that "internet companies" might not be viable long term. I'm in agreement with you there. The contrary view is far from "millennial" though. Perhaps some mobile home park investment might be more suitable for you? I jest …..
I will have to look into that!
…. Profits can be made from order flows. How do banks and their capital markets businesses make their money? …..
Apparently you don't know! You can use all the fancy words you like, but banks have to charge fees that exceed their cost base, just like everyone else who runs a business. I agree that banks' business model is extremely complex and that they don't make money on every transaction or deal, and sometimes they use (a few) specific transactions to "manage liquidity" shifting excess exposure off the balance sheet, but they are not immune from the need to make a profit.

So, per what I already said above, if your customer is moving funds against the predominant flow, you might be able to make money as you rebalance your book, but that isn't the basis for much on-going profit, it is more a quirk of activity perhaps a few days a year.

Last edited by Pulaski; Apr 17th 2019 at 2:43 pm.
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Old Apr 17th 2019, 2:46 pm
  #26  
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Default Re: Money transfer from UK

Originally Posted by SpeshK View Post
…. I guess that's no different to me being a very frequent Uber user as they sure aren't making money either but as a consumer, I'm taking advantage of unrealistically priced transportation. ...
On that much we agree.
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Old Apr 17th 2019, 8:17 pm
  #27  
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Default Re: Money transfer from UK

Originally Posted by SpeshK View Post
I've been using Circle recently. It's similar to TransferWise but no fees. Only issue is that you're limited in how much you can send a week. If you can plan accordingly, worth a look.

Additionally, you need to be wary of structuring.
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