Samantha

Thank you to the person who mentioned that I look into the Orlando Sentinel. I found
a few references to the article in question, but I found this: http://www.radioleft.-
com/article.php?sid=445&PHPSESSID=a7044bb182d34acbf3c2 990c11052ca1

I now realize that the woman in question was apparently a recent (year old)
convert to Islam. And she was using the excuse of religion to get away from
following the law.

I find it o-so-interesting, that so many people on this NG just assumed that this
woman was an immigrant. I thought the article "LIVING IN AMERICA BY AN AMERICAN" was
a little extreme(for lack of a better word) to be published in a so called mainstream
newspaper. I was mostly interested in find who the author was and read more of
his/her articles, which I gather was a big mistake. The article was filled with too
many generalizations and fed into the mainstream(?) xenophobic mentality.

I feel sorry for those of you who are scared to understand other cultures, those of
you who subscribe to racist mentality under the guise of patriotism and safety.

-Samantha

Rete

You can cross me off the "I feel sorry for her" list. Your pity is wasted on the likes of me.

I find it ironic that someone who is steadfastly preaching love thy neighbor and for others to practice compassion and tolerance of others is so quick to label those who exercise their political right to think, feel and express their different viewpoints as racist subscribers hiding under a cloak of subterfuge.

I do not recall having given you the authority to tell me how and what I should think and feel nor how I should behave towards others. That is a right no man or god has over me nor will ever have over me. As you are entitled to mouth off with all the platitudes and Lennonisms you wish, I, too, am entitled to see John Lennon as nothing more than a musician with a taste for drugs and a different lifestyle than mine. I was living the 60's long before you were old enough to understand what the movement was all about.

Rete

Just Jenney

Why do you find that oh-so-interesting?? Here's the first part of the post that started that whole thread:

Posted by an American on 7/26/02

After hearing that the state of Florida changed its opinion and let a Muslim woman have her picture on her drivers license with her face covered, I believe this is even more appropriate. Read on, please!

This is an Editorial written by an American citizen, published in a Tampa Newspaper. He did quite a job; didn't he?

IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture.

There was no link provided to this article; just a reposting of the man's letter. The poster went directly from mentioning the story of the state of Florida adapting it's practices to suit a Muslim woman, to an "even more appropriate" story of a letter someone wrote, which starts with the declaration, "IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT."

I, for one, didn't really care where the article came from or who wrote it; therefore I didn't look up all the links to "possible origins" of the article. I was more interested in what the posted letter actually said. And, based on that, it was easy to assume that the Muslim woman was an immigrant, based on what had been stated just before the letter began.

Please cite specific examples of people who espoused racism and/or a fear of understanding other cultures from the thread in question. Because I didn't see any at all.

~ Jenney

rogerpenycate

Firstly I would like to say that I am by no means a racist, like yourself I feel that there is much to be learned from cultures mixing together, when they do.
I read the previous thread and one point that struck me more than anything was someone said "it is only natural that people of the same culture would chose to live in the same community when they are living in a foreign country" (or words to that effect)
Someone else replied that "if they are living in a foreign country they should do everything possible to integrate into that society"

Worldwide this is rapidly becoming a major issue/problem and we are the lucky ones, we live (I am currently still in UK and will soon be joining my wife in VA) in countries that do have freedom of speech and are also able to afford the computers with which we are posting these messages.
For those of you who have ever been to Speakers Corner in London on a Sunday, you will see all manner of nationalities "debating" every topic on this planet.
Jews slagging off Arabs.
Arabs slagging off Jews
Muslims spouting anti- imperialism (there is even one guy there who is a spitting image of Colonel Gaddafi, and he IS Libyan, you
can imagine his retoric).
I advice any tourists to London to go there, it is a tremendous source of information, and although quite heated in all the years I have been going there,some 30 odd, I have never seen any trouble.
In Europe now the immigrant "problem" is starting to see a rise in
extreme right wing politicians (Le Penn in France is an obvious example) who are gaining popularity.
Immigrants mainly from the Balkan countries are flooding through Europe, many of them ending up in the camp in northern France trying anyway they can to get across the English Channel.
An English sailor was last week found guilty of skippering a ship in the Greek Isles with over 70 immigrants in the "hold" of a boat
with space for about 10. He claimed he was told by his boss that
he was taking tourists...Oh really !
Denmark has just passed a law that states, no Danish citizen can marry a foreigner unless they are over 24.
A politician in Belgium was recently murdered for his immigration
policies.

As long as there are those that have and those that have not, there will always be people who are prepared to give up and risk everything in search of a better life in "free" countries such as ours.

In my "extremely humble" opinion provided the situation is controlled, I see no reason why people of all type of race, creed
or colour cannot combine together in harmony.

I lived in Iran for 2 years in the mid-70's immediately prior to the demise of the Shah, they were the nicest people I had ever lived or worked with.

This is such a complex topic which I do not feel can be solved by
jingoism or over-nationalistic attitudes.

The alternatives, the rise to power of the extreme right wing are quite frankly horrifying

Mrtravel

Samantha wrote:
    >
    > Thank you to the person who mentioned that I look into the Orlando Sentinel. I
    > found a few references to the article in question, but I found this: http://www.ra-
    > dioleft.com/article.php?sid=445&PHPSESSID=a7044bb182d34acbf3c2 990c11052ca1
    >
    > I now realize that the woman in question was apparently a recent (year old)
    > convert to Islam. And she was using the excuse of religion to get away from
    > following the law.

I agree. However, there should be no distinction between a person that converts or
one that is "born" into a religion. That said, there should be no doubt that she must
show her face in a DL photo. After all, what is the purpose of requiring a photo in
the first place if you can't distinguish the person in the picture. As in the case of
airport inspections, submitting to these kind of obligations should happen no matter
what the religion.

Donna Maindraul

    > > I now realize that the woman in question was apparently a recent (year old)
    > > convert to Islam. And she was using the excuse of religion to get away from
    > > following the law.
    >
    > I agree. However, there should be no distinction between a person that converts or
    > one that is "born" into a religion.

From my personal observation, recent converts tend to be more jazzed up about
following the rules carefully than many people who were born into a religion. That's
not intended as a criticism of religions or conversion, just an observation.

The underlying point is very interesting, though...the integration of
different cultures. They've been arguing about this in France, too, with a
very different result.

Whereas here we believe "freedom of religion" means the right to follow religious
rules in public, the French interpret it as the obligation not to differentiate
yourself by showing your religion in private. For instace, an American Jew would be
permitted to wear a kippa to a public school, but a French Jew would be prohibited.
If a child wanted to wear a kippa, he would need to attend a private school. The same
for the chador for women. The French Jews I spoke to about it find this perfectly
reasonable (although recently they've been scared by the graffiti and attacks.)

There is currently a lot of argument over whether Arab immigrants are fitting in or
destroying French society.

I suspect that anything the French say about Arabs or that Americans say about
Mexicans was probably said about every racial group of immigrants that ever arrived
here. I've seen pictures of "No Irish Need Apply" signs in NYC, and now they're our
firemen and policemen, and they marry our daughters. Heck, I think my first husband
was half Irish.

That just leads to another poster's point...after a generation, eastern Europeans and
Russians will "pass" as "ordinary regular Americans," while Africans and Asians whose
families came hundreds of years ago still look "ethnic." I've heard children of mixed
ancestry (a la Tiger Woods) describe themselves as "post-racial." May we someday all
get there with them!

-Donna

Matta Harri

In article <[email protected] >, [email protected]
(Samantha) wrote:
    >
    > I feel sorry for those of you who are scared to understand other cultures, those of
    > you who subscribe to racist mentality under the guise of patriotism and safety.

Don't worry. You will grow up someday. It takes time.

There is a big difference between racism and law. Persons who live in the US have to
obey the law. That was the point of the whole thing, as I understood it. It had
nothing to do with racism.

However, in my experience, those who shout the loudest are usually those who feel the
most intimidated in any situation. Get over it. We did.

matta