Illegal immigration - A Story
Sep 15th 2016, 12:16 pm
#31
Lost in BE Cyberspace
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Re: Illegal immigration - A Story
James Cornford who was one of my teachers at Edinburgh University in the 1960s said that life is easier when you realise that all Americans are bat-shit crazy.
Sep 15th 2016, 12:42 pm
#32
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,154
Re: Illegal immigration - A Story
Social Security has no issue with someone who uses a fraudulent social security number and then later getting one in their own name when they can legally do so. All they need to do is have social security transfer their credits and contributions to the new correct social security number.
America just does not want to remove people who shouldn't be in the country.
Sep 15th 2016, 12:54 pm
#33
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Re: Illegal immigration - A Story
The sense of entitlement is awesome.
She must be Murican.
She must be Murican.
Sep 15th 2016, 1:16 pm
#34
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Re: Illegal immigration - A Story
Social Security do what they do, there is very little overview anywhere.
Sep 15th 2016, 1:29 pm
#37
Joined: Aug 2003
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Re: Illegal immigration - A Story
"There are many ways to debate immigration, but when it comes to economics, there isn’t much of a debate at all. Nearly all economists, of all political persuasions, agree that immigrants — those here legally or not — benefit the overall economy. “That is not controversial,” Heidi Shierholz, an economist at the Economic Policy Institute, told me. Shierholz also said that “there is a consensus that, on average, the incomes of families in this country are increased by a small, but clearly positive amount, because of immigration.” The benefit multiplies over the long haul. As the baby boomers retire, the post-boom generation’s burden to finance their retirement is greatly alleviated by undocumented immigrants. Stephen Goss, chief actuary for the Social Security Administration, told me that undocumented workers contribute about $15 billion a year to Social Security through payroll taxes. They only take out $1 billion (very few undocumented workers are eligible to receive benefits). Over the years, undocumented workers have contributed up to $300 billion, or nearly 10 percent, of the $2.7 trillion Social Security Trust Fund."
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/ma...nomy.html?_r=0
Sep 15th 2016, 1:38 pm
#38
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Posts: 2
Re: Illegal immigration - A Story
Not only do they not want to remove them, assorted institutions and businesses have for years encouraged, enabled and promoted undocumented people. Not so much at the level of the corporate exec of course, but nevertheless. Immigration, both legal and illegal, is a huge economic engine, and that includes Social Security. Nobody is going to be stopping it for real any time soon...
"There are many ways to debate immigration, but when it comes to economics, there isn’t much of a debate at all. Nearly all economists, of all political persuasions, agree that immigrants — those here legally or not — benefit the overall economy. “That is not controversial,” Heidi Shierholz, an economist at the Economic Policy Institute, told me. Shierholz also said that “there is a consensus that, on average, the incomes of families in this country are increased by a small, but clearly positive amount, because of immigration.” The benefit multiplies over the long haul. As the baby boomers retire, the post-boom generation’s burden to finance their retirement is greatly alleviated by undocumented immigrants. Stephen Goss, chief actuary for the Social Security Administration, told me that undocumented workers contribute about $15 billion a year to Social Security through payroll taxes. They only take out $1 billion (very few undocumented workers are eligible to receive benefits). Over the years, undocumented workers have contributed up to $300 billion, or nearly 10 percent, of the $2.7 trillion Social Security Trust Fund."
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/ma...nomy.html?_r=0
"There are many ways to debate immigration, but when it comes to economics, there isn’t much of a debate at all. Nearly all economists, of all political persuasions, agree that immigrants — those here legally or not — benefit the overall economy. “That is not controversial,” Heidi Shierholz, an economist at the Economic Policy Institute, told me. Shierholz also said that “there is a consensus that, on average, the incomes of families in this country are increased by a small, but clearly positive amount, because of immigration.” The benefit multiplies over the long haul. As the baby boomers retire, the post-boom generation’s burden to finance their retirement is greatly alleviated by undocumented immigrants. Stephen Goss, chief actuary for the Social Security Administration, told me that undocumented workers contribute about $15 billion a year to Social Security through payroll taxes. They only take out $1 billion (very few undocumented workers are eligible to receive benefits). Over the years, undocumented workers have contributed up to $300 billion, or nearly 10 percent, of the $2.7 trillion Social Security Trust Fund."
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/ma...nomy.html?_r=0
Noway obviously you could do that with legal labour.
Also spoke to someone yesterday who lived in SE Colorado, he was telling me he could get construction labour easily for $8 and hour, he pays $10. $12 would be max, cash obviously.
Those calculations are very misleading, they do not take into account many many costs that are not covered, one child for example would be $10k a year to educate.
Sep 15th 2016, 1:41 pm
#39
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: East Seaxe
Posts: 72,535
Re: Illegal immigration - A Story
Somebody I know had a roof redone, and he told me how much it was, much less than I expected, and how long they took etc. So I was talking to a friend who used to be in the business and we quickly crunched some numbers and reckoned the Contractor employee costs were about $12 an hour.
Noway obviously you could do that with legal labour.
Also spoke to someone yesterday who lived in SE Colorado, he was telling me he could get construction labour easily for $8 and hour, he pays $10. $12 would be max, cash obviously.
Those calculations are very misleading, they do not take into account many many costs that are not covered, one child for example would be $10k a year to educate.
Noway obviously you could do that with legal labour.
Also spoke to someone yesterday who lived in SE Colorado, he was telling me he could get construction labour easily for $8 and hour, he pays $10. $12 would be max, cash obviously.
Those calculations are very misleading, they do not take into account many many costs that are not covered, one child for example would be $10k a year to educate.
The whole thing is really a political football. Nobody really has the slightest intention of stopping it, and frankly I don't think it's even possible to stop it. History suggests that anyway.
Sep 15th 2016, 1:52 pm
#40
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Posts: 2
Re: Illegal immigration - A Story
Yet there is clearly a net economic gain or it wouldn't continue to happen the way it does. Your educated immigrant child will go on in a few short years to become a net contributor to the country's economy way beyond the cost of education.
The whole thing is really a political football. Nobody really has the slightest intention of stopping it, and frankly I don't think it's even possible to stop it. History suggests that anyway.
The whole thing is really a political football. Nobody really has the slightest intention of stopping it, and frankly I don't think it's even possible to stop it. History suggests that anyway.
Some people are winners, some are losers, some are both at different times.
If you were once a Roofer, well you can not compete with somebody on $12 an hour cash.
From what I have observed the children are not net obvious net contributors.
Another example, quite common, guy was here illegally, married, followed his wife's story about going through waiver process etc, came back with a GC.
Worked in Construction, responsible, good worker, wanted to go back to work with same employer, could not.
Even at the same pay rate, now he wanted to be legal, employer actual costs with deductions etc would have nearly doubled his hourly cost.
Sep 15th 2016, 1:57 pm
#41
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: East Seaxe
Posts: 72,535
Re: Illegal immigration - A Story
Wrong
Some people are winners, some are losers, some are both at different times.
If you were once a Roofer, well you can not compete with somebody on $12 an hour cash.
From what I have observed the children are not net obvious net contributors.
Another example, quite common, guy was here illegally, married, followed his wife's story about going through waiver process etc, came back with a GC.
Worked in Construction, responsible, good worker, wanted to go back to work with same employer, could not.
Even at the same pay rate, now he wanted to be legal, employer actual costs with deductions etc would have nearly doubled his hourly cost.
Some people are winners, some are losers, some are both at different times.
If you were once a Roofer, well you can not compete with somebody on $12 an hour cash.
From what I have observed the children are not net obvious net contributors.
Another example, quite common, guy was here illegally, married, followed his wife's story about going through waiver process etc, came back with a GC.
Worked in Construction, responsible, good worker, wanted to go back to work with same employer, could not.
Even at the same pay rate, now he wanted to be legal, employer actual costs with deductions etc would have nearly doubled his hourly cost.
I'm not sure what' s wrong exactly
The country as a whole clearly benefits. Individuals may or may not, and that goes for immigrants as well.
The sample that "you have observed" simply isn't large enough to verify national benefit.
Sep 15th 2016, 1:59 pm
#42
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Posts: 2
Re: Illegal immigration - A Story
Certainly not clear at all, if you only look at part of the picture you will only get a distorted response.
And you would need to define what you mean by whole country.
And you would need to define what you mean by whole country.
Sep 15th 2016, 2:03 pm
#43
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: East Seaxe
Posts: 72,535
Re: Illegal immigration - A Story
And looking at that entity is what gives you the overall picture.
If you look at individual instances, you will find some better off, some worse off, and some about the same. The national picture gives you the aggregate, and I posted the numbers above from that New York Times article. That is, partly, why the US takes no real measures to stop illegal immigration - the country is being largely funded by them and it makes no economic sense to stop.
Sep 15th 2016, 2:12 pm
#44
Sasstronaut
Joined: Aug 2016
Location: Manhattan, NYC
Posts: 1,304
Re: Illegal immigration - A Story
Question here...
As people have questioned how she was able to transition to legal through marriage despite a less-than-legal route - would that have been forgiven under president Obama's amnesty? hence her ability ultimately become a USC?
Or does the article predate Obama's policies? (sorry its been a few days since I read it).
As people have questioned how she was able to transition to legal through marriage despite a less-than-legal route - would that have been forgiven under president Obama's amnesty? hence her ability ultimately become a USC?
Or does the article predate Obama's policies? (sorry its been a few days since I read it).
Sep 15th 2016, 2:19 pm
#45
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Posts: 2
Re: Illegal immigration - A Story
The US as a political and geographic entity.
And looking at that entity is what gives you the overall picture.
If you look at individual instances, you will find some better off, some worse off, and some about the same. The national picture gives you the aggregate, and I posted the numbers above from that New York Times article. That is, partly, why the US takes no real measures to stop illegal immigration - the country is being largely funded by them and it makes no economic sense to stop.
And looking at that entity is what gives you the overall picture.
If you look at individual instances, you will find some better off, some worse off, and some about the same. The national picture gives you the aggregate, and I posted the numbers above from that New York Times article. That is, partly, why the US takes no real measures to stop illegal immigration - the country is being largely funded by them and it makes no economic sense to stop.
Well not often or usually.
Some of it is calculable, some is subjective.
Social Security contributions for example, well short term those that pay in and can not claim is a plus, as it is essentially a ponzi scheme. If they legalise now or if there is amnesty down the road it will be another unfunded liability.
Schools, well a minus as most Schooling is funded by property taxes and there are cross subsidies.
If you are a construction worker obviously a minus, pay is lower than it was 15 years ago.
I could go on and on.
Probably the big issue is the long term effects, which can not be quantified. They can be guessed at, not looking good.