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Hypothetically Speaking .......

Hypothetically Speaking .......

Old Dec 31st 2001, 10:14 am
  #1  
Stu
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Say an individual (US Citizen by birth) intends to marry in a foreign country and do
the Spousal instead of the Fiancé's Visa to bring the wife to the US, and just
"Suppose" that in the interest of brevity, to reduce translation costs, and to hide
a track-record of failed marriages, he presents an incomplete record of previous
marriages and their legal dissolutions to the registering agency in the foreign
country, providing only the proof of the most recent one. My contention is that if
the most recent marriage was both legally performed (and dissolved), then any
marriages prior to it must have been proven to have been properly dissolved to the
satisfaction of local US authorities. So assuming that the authorities in the
foreign country are misled by the omission of the 'complete' matrimonial history,
and the marriage is performed there, what happens to the status of the immigrant
spouse now living in the US, if at some future time the subterfuge of the sponsoring
citizen is discovered and the "Official - status" of the marriage abroad is called
into question?

This is a 'real' question (though hypothetical), because the bureaucracy in this
particular foreign country is notorious for searching "All" types of applications
(Automobile Registrations, Visa-Extensions, Birth Registrations - et.al.) with
fine-toothed combs to find reasons to create various "Problems" for 'any and all'
(but particularly "Foreign") applicants, until sufficient bribes are paid. So I
will be privately questioned by an official regarding the 'doubts' and
'questions' he has regarding my most recent divorce; he (or she) will suggest
that it may be necessary for me to provide additional paperwork from the US. I
will then proffer a folded piece of blank paper containing a US $100. bill and
ask: "Oh, I am so sorry to have forgotten, is this the paperwork you
need?.......... and, of course it will be!

So that takes care of me satisfying 'one' official that my most recent divorce
was properly terminated, but if there are multiple divorces, I will be sent to
other "Individual" officials who for bribes will deem each divorce as legitimate,
one-at-a-time, until finally I will be issued the permission to marry one of
their citizens within their country. Because they will demand to see my passport,
hotel (or domicile) registration, my visa, and my return ticket to the US, they
will know my time constraints (which will be only 2 weeks - very severe), and
apply pressure accordingly.

And it isn't that I feel any resentment towards these individuals, the country as
a whole, or anything like that - they themselves must pay-off and bribe as part
of their daily lives - they even have to pay and bribe to get these "Official
Positions" with pay so abysmally low it's untenable. Still, why should I pay
$500. USD for 5 prior marriages, when (in my mind, anyway) $100. should suffice?

Please don't waste your time in replying in critically moralistic, scolding,
and/or chastisement venues .......... I am a pragmatist first, a moralist
second.......

AND HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Old Dec 31st 2001, 12:13 pm
  #2  
Alvena Ferreira
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stu wrote:
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IF the fraud is discovered at any future time, the alien could be asked to leave the
US. If this were discovered at the time of removal of conditions, the removal could
be denied and you might be required to file a waiver of inadmissibility (If you were
lucky and they did not take you and your spouse to court right then and there). You
would have to show very extreme hardship in order to get such a waiver through
successfully, based on recent cases.

EVEN IF this were discovered LONG AFTER naturalization occurred, the justice
department could instigate denaturalization proceedings, as misrepresentation on
immigration documents has ->NO<- statutory lifetime limit (re-read and reflect this
last statement): http://www.usvisa-law.com/citizens.htm (tip: do search for
"denaturalization" to find this info quickl on the above URL) Here is the INS law on
fraud and misrepresentation, for your review: http://www.ins.usdoj.gov/lpBin/lpext.d-
ll/inserts/slb/slb-15/slb-1060/slb-1833/slb-1844?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm
You should also consider that YOU could be fined/imprisoned for fraud in this
situation. The penalties for a US citizen who participates in document fraud are
listed here: http://www.rreeves.com/pub_265.htm

As I understand it, the alien spouse would be immediately deportable under the 1996
law, however, as soon as this was proven in court and so ordered. Why in the world
would you want to subject your wife to a lifetime of uncertainty, anxiety, and worry
about this? Because that's how long it would last....a lifetime. A lifetime of
wondering if someone who knew about your previous history would report this to the
INS and all of your plans would go to hell in a heartbeat...it simply does not seem
worth it to me. Alvena
-----------------------
Doc Steen Site: http://www.mindspring.com/~docsteen/...o/visainfo.htm
=========================================
I am not a lawyer and this is not immigration advice. This is my personal opinion,
posted for the purpose of discussion only. Locate an immigration attorney in your
area at: http://www.aila.org
=========================================
 
Old Dec 31st 2001, 1:55 pm
  #3  
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Perdue is an unknown quantity at this point
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Wouldn't it be simpler to just do the fiance visa, and avoid the question of all of your previous marriages with the foreign government?
Perdue is offline  
Old Dec 31st 2001, 2:24 pm
  #4  
Andrew Defaria
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Perdue wrote:

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I fail to see how doing a fiance visa would avoid any questions of previous
marriages.
 
Old Dec 31st 2001, 7:31 pm
  #5  
Alvena Ferreira
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[usenetquote2]> > As I understand it, the alien spouse would be immediately deportable under the[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > 1996 law, however, as soon as this was proven in court and so ordered. Why in the[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > world would you want to subject your wife to a lifetime of uncertainty, anxiety,[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > and worry about this? Because that's how long it would last....a lifetime. A[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > lifetime of wondering if someone who knew about your previous history would[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > report this to the INS and all of your plans would go to hell in a heartbeat...it[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > simply does not seem worth it to me.[/usenetquote2]
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Andrew DeFaria wrote:
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There was a good reason: to control illegal immigration based on marriage (or
anything else) which was done just for the purpose of immigration and not for (in the
case of marriage) love. Fraud has always been a problem, and this law was enacted to
help to control such fraud.

Alvena
-----------------------
Doc Steen Site: http://www.mindspring.com/~docsteen/...o/visainfo.htm
=========================================
I am not a lawyer and this is not immigration advice. This is my personal opinion,
posted for the purpose of discussion only. Locate an immigration attorney in your
area at: http://www.aila.org
=========================================
 
Old Jan 1st 2002, 12:06 am
  #6  
Stu
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Dear Alvena,

I think you're quite right about the future - about how some sleepy Summers' day
years from now this 'indescretion' could rear -up an ugly, destructive monster -
so I will take your advice to heart. However, the intent would not have been to
'defraud' anyone, only to significantly reduce the mordida extracted. My point
was that the foreign marriage would be legal under the presumed 'intent' of the
law but not the 'letter' of it, because though the documentary evidence would be
incomplete regarding the entire marital history, to produce valid documentary
proofs of the legality of the most recent American marriage should be de-facto
evidence that if there 'were' prior marriages they had been legally disolved or
the marriage in question could not have been performed.

Anyway, thanks to all who took the time to advise me, and HAPPY NEW
YEAR!!!!!!!!!!
 
Old Jan 1st 2002, 1:52 am
  #7  
Andrew Defaria
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--------------020606030708070809010209

Alvena Ferreira wrote:

[usenetquote2]>>> As I understand it, the alien spouse would be immediately deportable under the[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>> 1996 law, however, as soon as this was proven in court and so ordered. Why in the[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>> world would you want to subject your wife to a lifetime of uncertainty, anxiety,[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>> and worry about this? Because that's how long it would last....a lifetime. A[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>> lifetime of wondering if someone who knew about your previous history would[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>> report this to the INS and all of your plans would go to hell in a heartbeat...it[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>> simply does not seem worth it to me.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
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[usenetquote2]>> Seems to me to be an awfully cruel punishment to inflict on the alien for the sins[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> of the USC![/usenetquote2]
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Understood, but I would think that is should only be a problem when the alien is
involved in the fraud. In the hypothetical case presented it was the US Citizen that
was being fraudulent about past marriages to a foreign nation that have nothing to do
with the current situation between the USC and the beneficiary. In fact the
hypothetical case presented fraud only about the previous marriage that had failed
for some reason or another not about past marriages that were themselves fraudulent.
Also, if the USC had committed bank fraud several years back the INS would not bat an
eye at it because the USC's past is not in question. Why then should the INS be
concerned about past, possibly fraudulent statements made by the USC to a foreign
official? In fact there is precedent that says that fraud is not fraud to the INS
unless made to an official of the US government WRT fraud that the INS cares about.
Since in this hypothetical scenario no official of the US government was presented
with fraudulent documentation where then has the fraud occurred?

I suspect you'll say that the foreign marriage is null and void since it was not
official in the country that it was conducted in. But if that country deems it
official then who is the INS to question it? And how would the INS question it? IOW
if the marriage certificate is official from the foreign country then I'd say the
INS has no right nor jurisdiction to interpret the laws of another country in order
to deem whether or not the marriage certificate was fraudulent. If the foreign
country says the marriage certificate is official then I suspect that the INS must
accept that.

--------------020606030708070809010209

<html> <head> </head> <body> Alvena Ferreira wrote:<br> <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:[email protected]"> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote
type="cite">As I understand it, the alien spouse would be immediately deportable
under the 1996 law, however, as soon as this was proven in court and so ordered. Why
in the world would you want to subject your wife to a lifetime of uncertainty,
anxiety, and worry about this? Because that's how long it would last....a lifetime. A
lifetime of wondering if someone who knew about your previous history would report
this to the INS and all of your plans would go to hell in a heartbeat...it simply
does not seem worth it to me.<br> </blockquote> </blockquote> <!---->Andrew DeFaria
wrote:<br> <blockquote type="cite">Seems to me to be an awfully cruel punishment to
inflict on the alien for the sins of the USC!<br> </blockquote> <!---->There was a
good reason: to control illegal immigration based on marriage (or anything else)
which was done just for the purpose of immigration and not for (in the case of
marriage) love. Fraud has always been a problem, and this law was enacted to help to
control such fraud. <br> </blockquote> Understood, but I would think that is should
only be a problem when the alien is involved in the fraud. In the hypothetical case
presented it was the US Citizen that was being fraudulent about past marriages to a
foreign nation that have nothing to do with the current situation between the USC and
the beneficiary. In fact the hypothetical case presented fraud only about the
previous marriage that had failed for some reason or another not about past marriages
that were themselves fraudulent. Also, if the USC had committed bank fraud several
years back the INS would not bat an eye at it because the USC's past is not in
question. Why then should the INS be concerned about past, possibly fraudulent
statements made by the USC to a foreign official? In fact there is precedent that
says that fraud is not fraud to the INS unless made to an official of the US
government WRT fraud that the INS cares about. Since in this hypothetical scenario no
official of the US government was presented with fraudulent documentation where then
has the fraud occurred?<br> <br> I suspect you'll say that the foreign marriage is
null and void since it was not official in the country that it was conducted in. But
if that country deems it official then who is the INS to question it? And how would
the INS question it? IOW if the marriage certificate is official from the foreign
country then I'd say the INS has no right nor jurisdiction to interpret the laws of
another country in order to deem whether or not the marriage certificate was
fraudulent. If the foreign country says the marriage certificate is official then I
suspect that the INS must accept that.<br> </body> </html>

--------------020606030708070809010209--
 
Old Jan 1st 2002, 5:57 pm
  #8  
Michael Voight
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If you don't report them to the other country, who knows what that does to the
legality of the marriage.. If you don't report them to INS for either I-130 or I-129F
processing, it is fraud.

Your contentions are false.. No matter how you want to justify it, you would be
violating the laws of 2 countries, and more importantly probably hiding this all from
your future wife. She has a right to know.
 
Old Jan 1st 2002, 6:00 pm
  #9  
Michael Voight
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Andrew DeFaria wrote:

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Even "IF" it was still legal in the other country, he would still be lying to INS
since he is going to be the other marriage from them and his wife to be.

Michael
 
Old Jan 1st 2002, 9:57 pm
  #10  
Andrew Defaria
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Michael Voight wrote:

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True but in the cited hypothetical case presented, which is, all we have to go by,
the person was said to only "presented an incomplete record of previous marriages" to
"the registering agency in the foreign country". There was nothing in the
hypothetical case that stated that he did not report them to the INS nor that these
failed marriages were hidden from the current wife. Why then do you make these
assumptions?
 
Old Jan 1st 2002, 9:58 pm
  #11  
Andrew Defaria
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--------------040606090002090206000406

Michael Voight wrote:

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[usenetquote2]>> I suspect you'll say that the foreign marriage is null and void since it was not[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> official in the country that it was conducted in. But if that country deems it[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> official then who is the INS to question it? And how would the INS question it?[/usenetquote2]
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As I said before, your presumption is not supported by the case presented.

--------------040606090002090206000406

<html> <head> </head> <body> Michael Voight wrote:<br> <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:[email protected]">Andrew DeFaria wrote: <blockquote
type="cite">I suspect you'll say that the foreign marriage is null and void since it
was not official in the country that it was conducted
in. But if that country deems it official then who is the INS to question it?
And<br> how would the INS question it?<br> </blockquote> <!---->Even "IF" it was
still legal in the other country, he would still be lying to INS since he is
going to be the other marriage from them and his wife to be.<br> </blockquote>
As I said before, your presumption is not supported by the case presented.<br>
</body> </html>

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Old Jan 1st 2002, 11:59 pm
  #12  
Rita
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You are forgetting the fact at the time the USC completes the I-130, etc. for the
foreign spouse, one of those documents is a G-325A biographically sheet. One it one
is asked to list all previous marriages (dates, names, etc.) as well as divorces. If
one excludes that information, than the G-325A was fraudulently submitted even though
you might consider it just incomplete. You are asked for complete martial history
throughout your lifetime.

As one can enter into a marriage where one does not admit at the time of licensing to
previous marriage(s). Also say the person were married three times. The first
marriage was legal as was the subsequent divorce. The second marriage was legal but
the divorce never completed. The USC might at the time of applying for the license
neglects to advise the agency of this fact, is given a license and proceeds to marry.
The marry in any country is then invalid as it was based on fraudulent information.

Since the adjustment of status is based solely on the validity of the marriage, the
foreign spouse no longer has a legal basis to continue pr status. INS has the right
to strip them of the green card and deport them from the US. I assume, however, that
the INS will, if the alien has a good attorney, rule in favor of the alien remaining
in the US if it can be proven that she was duped into marriage and entered into it
for the correct purpose and not just for a green card.

Rita
 
Old Jan 2nd 2002, 12:15 am
  #13  
Andrew Defaria
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Rita wrote:

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Again, the hypothetical situation proposed did not mention the USC omitting anything
on their G-325A, It said "'Suppose' that in the interest of brevity, to reduce
translation costs, and to hide a track-record of failed marriages he presents an
incomplete record of previous marriages and their legal dissolutions to the
registering agency in the foreign country, providing only the proof of the most
recent one". I don't think the "registering agency in the foreign country" = "INS".
Further is states "So assuming that the authorities in the foreign country are misled
by the omission of the 'complete' matrimonial history...". Again I don't think that
"authories in the foreign country" = "INS".
 
Old Jan 2nd 2002, 2:12 pm
  #14  
Onigiri
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A marital history turns to martial history only when there has been several battles
within each of those marital/martial campaigns. Have a happy new year.

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Old Jan 2nd 2002, 6:45 pm
  #15  
Michael Voight
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Andrew DeFaria wrote:
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[usenetquote2]> > Andrew DeFaria wrote:[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> I suspect you'll say that the foreign marriage is null and void since it was not[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> official in the country that it was conducted in. But if that country deems it[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> official then who is the INS to question it? And how would the INS question it?[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > Even "IF" it was still legal in the other country, he would still be lying to INS[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > since he is going to be the other marriage from them and his wife to be.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
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He did state that he wanted to hide his failed marriages. I assume he meant from his
wife to be. If he is hiding them from one government, I also assume that means he
would also be hiding them from INS. I don't think the goverment is who is is
concerend about.

Michael
 

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