If one were to get a greencard (2 or 10 year) through AOS and 1 year later this person and her husband were to move abroad how long could the greencard be used to enter the U.S.?
For example, suppose the couple moved abroad but 4 weeks later they had to fly back to get some things or take care of some business. Would the INS flag this greencard as invalid? AFAIK, you don't report to the INS that you are leaving the country and hand the greencard in, no?
Suppose, 3 months or 6 months later after living abroad they came back for a visit, would the greencard simply allow entry, or would the foreign spouse need a visa waiver or visitor's visa? I'm just curious how the INS handles these cases where a greencard holder moves permanently back to their country and how long it takes INS ot realize that the couple is no longer living in the U.S.?
Thanks.

You can spend up to a year out of the US and keep your green card. If you plan to spend between 1 and 2 years abroad, you can apply for a re-entry permit from your local INS office in the US. Beyond 2 years, you lose the green card.

If the USC spouse is moved abroad by their American employer, then the foreign spouse can apply for immediate naturalisation, even if they don't meet the 3 year residency requirement, if this is something that interests you.

I don't know if the above advice applies if one who holds a green card has re-established residency in their own country or in another country. It is my understanding that re-establishing residency outside of the US will invalidate your green card and of course stop your naturalization clock. A green card is for the purpose of establishing and maintaining residency within the US. To leave the country of your own volition, set up a household and take employment or benefits in a country outside of the US and the paying of taxes on a residency basis to a country other than the US clearly indicates to the INS that one has abandoned their green card.

This is what has been explained to me by an immigration attorney when we asked about my Canadian husband returning to Canada for six months or more per year. It was suggested that he obtain US citizenship first before returning to live, even part time in Canada, since I will not be assigned there to work as a USC which would enable him to come with me without abandoning his green card.

Rita

Rita,

I think it has very much to do with your intentions. If you intend to return to the US, and indeed consider that your long-term home, there is no problem. Clearly if you plan or do return to the US within a year, then it's hard to see how you have abandoned your US residency.

This intention is something that the INS considers when you apply for the re-entry permit, and there is no guarantee that they will approve this. From memory, I think you need to show that you are maintaining contact with the US - bank account etc - while abroad; and they will also look at the nature of your residency abroad (does it look like you are there temporarily or permanently). You also need to file a Federal (and I believe State and local) tax returns as a permanent resident abroad. If you don't do this, then you've basically abandoned your US status. BTW, I meant to mention in my first post that the re-entry permit covers your second year out of the US. You can apply again for a re-entry permit for a third year, but the chances of this being approved go down dramatically.

The issue with getting US citizenship just so that you can live abroad indefinitely while maintaining the rights to resettle in the US is that you are liable for US taxes. Depending on your individual circumstances, this may not cause you any grief whatsoever, but I think it is worth understanding the implications before taking this one-way trip.

If you move to a country that doesn't have a fast track back to the US via the DCF process (and Canada is in this category), then naturalization is undoubtably very attractive. If you are going to a country where you can DCF in a few months or less, then it's not as crucial.

I don't think you are really following what I am saying. Aren't you the gentleman who has multiple citizenships? US, Canadian and English? Any others? Why did you become a Canadian citizen?

I bow to your great knowledge on many things but I will debate you on the premise of what constitutes residency in a particular country. INS and Canada for that matter both say residency is spending 183 days in one particular country. You might be able to leave the US and Canada for over that length of time but as you pointed out in the US you need a re-entry permit and in Canada you need a RRP.

Yes INS and at times the US Consulate have the authority to determine if you are entitled to a re-entry permit. I would stand by the premise that anyone who is a green card holder or has landed residency in Canada who is out of the country for 183 days, who is gainfully employed in another country, who has filed for re-residency in that country if it is their native country, has clearly shown that they no longer have a desire for a green card, does not wish to make the US their country of residency and should be stripped of their green card status and denied a re-entry permit. A green card should not be a revolving door to be used by a person when and if they have a desire to change locations.

Rita

No, I only have one citizenship - British - and I am female.

I believe, and this is based on a very long letter from my immigration attorney about the dos and don'ts of US permanent residency, that the first year out of the country doesn't have any restrictions.

The INS doesn't care until they review your application for a re-entry permit. Whether the fact that you are returning to your country of prior residency lowers your chances of having your permit approved, I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if it weakens your case somewhat.

This is an interesting discussion. My main interest lies in this less than 1 year scenario that Ameriscot talks about. If you pack up your bags, ship everything to the new country you'll be living in, by a house there, start a job there, etc. you are no doubt no longer going to be a permanent resident of the U.S. But I'm mainly concerned with at what point does the INS know or care about your move and will "call you" on re-entering? I guess the safe thing to do in this scenario, even if it were only 1 month after you moved is to simply fill out the Visa Waiver form (as I'm talking about the UK in my case) but I'm thinking that the INS probably would not know that you have moved abroad...how would they know unless tax time has passed and they knew that you didn't file taxes, etc.
As for DCF, I believe the UK will do this as long as the American citizen has been a resident of the UK for at least 6 months, so I imagine getting the greencard again would only take a couple months at the longest, right?
It'd be interesting to know if Rita or Ameriscot is correct about the 183 days vs. 1 year thing. I could see a situation where a greencard holder has to return to his home country for more than 183 days but less than 1 year because of some family crisis or maybe even some half year course they want to take in their home country or something of that nature. Would the greencard holder have abandoned their permanent residency even if they fully intent to come back right after the situation in their home country was finished?
Thanks,
Matt

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In my experience when re-entering on a green card (and I have done this several
times) the immigration officer at the POE asks one question 'How long have you been
out of the United States?' (That is the _only_ question I have been asked since
getting I-551 stamp and actual green card). Your answer had better be truthful
because while you tell him/her the answer, he/she is looking at their screen which I
bet tells them when you left. I have had no further questions at entry and no
problems, on absences ranging from a few days to up to a month. YMMV.

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I think Visa Waiver is irrelevant to greencard holder. Visa Waiver is for non-US
citizens without a visa or for non-US-residents, it is not for US residents (which
you are if you have a green card).

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They may certainly know when you leave. I have had to show my green card when
checking in at US airports (BA, American Airlines etc). The checkin staff know you
have (should have) a greencard or an I-551 when they see your passport.

Cannot comment on DCF. You might get the re-entry permit application form &
instructions and see what they states. I heard (from an immigration lawyer) that
when applying for removal of conditions you will be ok so long as not out of the US
for more than 1 year of the 2 years would cause problems though I don't know what
exactly ie would removal be denied, at the least it may mean an interview which
might not otherwise have occurred and a few awkward questions. (That being 1 year
accumulated time ie several trips out could add up to over 1 year and so you need to
keep track of them).

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If the situation may be open-ended, why not apply for the re-entry permit anyway ?
But I thought a re-entry permit was necessary for absence over 1 year.

Just my experience and what I was told. May be completely irrelevant and
contradictory to others experiences.

The 183 days is for the establishment of residency. YOu can vacation outside of the US for more than 183 and still be a resident. The crux is where you have your living quarters, pay taxes, etc.

As for you, you will be returning to the UK with your USC wife. You will have to file for residency for her to live there with you. If you do, than you have established your new residency as the UK and have removed your permanent residency from the US.

When it comes to paying taxes, i.e. for Canada, you have to either pay taxes as a resident or a non-resident. In order to be considered a non-resident in Canada, you have to complete a form and then the Customs/Taxation of Canada (which sucks big time btw) will tell you what they decide ... are you or aren't you? It is up to them.

Rita
Who may be many things but is not stupid, ignorant or foolish enough to believe that INS does NOT share information with the rest of the world on its immigrants.

Sorry for the assumption of your multiple citizenships. There is a poster here who does have US/CAN citizenship and is quick to point out his superior knowledge.

Your attorney's advice and what I adviced I have received from our consultation immigration attorney (no, not Matt) and what has occurred to someone's relative in my office, contradicts your attorney's advice.

I was advised the way I have been posting and experience of another tells me this is supported by the INS.

A cousin of a co-worker went back to Israel to see her dad before he died. She was a green card holder. She remained in Israel after the funeral to help out her mother and was gone from the US for 8 months total. The US Consulate refused her a re-entry permit telling her because of the length of her stay outside of the US and the facts that she was renting a furnished room, had a part time job, she had abandoned her pr status. It took the intervention of a US Immigration attorney and a congressperson to get this lady back into the US and have her green card re-instated.

Rita

The 183 day thingy is the IRS significant presence test (SPT). As far as the US is concerned, you are taxed on your worldwide income as a citizen or green card holder. As a non-resident alien, if you meet the SPT then you have to file a tax return. If you don't then there is no need to file a US tax return. In your case, it doesn't really apply because you are liable for US taxation no matter how many days you spend in the US. I don't see where 183 days comes up at all for the INS.

When you are in the UK, you basically have to file a US tax return because one of you is a US citizen. It is just as easy to do a joint return, and therefore you won't abandon your green card through lack of tax filing.

When I was living in the UK as a green card holder, I returned to the US for a holiday after about 10 months - there wasn't any problem at all at the POE. I went through the citizen channel etc and no one batted an eyelid (granted there was a lot less computerisation in those day and I had a hard-back black passport).

In order to move back to the UK, your US citizen spouse will need to secure a marriage settlement visa for the UK. This visa should be sufficient to allow you to do DCF, should your stay in the UK exceed the time allowed by the re-entry permit.

On the INS site, here's what it says about re-entry permits:

"Lawful permanent residents or conditional permanent residents who wish to remain outside the United States for more than one year, but less than two, require a reentry permit. A reentry permit is not required for a trip that is shorter than one year."

I think this is fairly clear that they don't care why you are outside. If you present yourself back for residence within a year, then clearly your intentions are compatible with holding a green card. I think there is a problem with basically living abroad longterm, returning every year for a week or so to activate the green card, though.

Rita,

It is possible that your Israeli friend was denied a re-entry permit because she was already abroad when she applied for it. One of the rules of the re-entry permit is that you have to be in the US when you apply.

I found this on the I-131 instructions, which also re-iterated that it is not necessary for stays abroad of less than one year.

http://www.ins.gov/graphics/formsfee...iles/i-131.pdf

What appears to have us at loggerheads here is the definition of residency.

To me, if the original returns to the UK, takes along his USC wife, rents an apartment, finds a job, opens a bank account, moves his household items from the US to the UK, he is giving up his residency in the US. At least this is how it looks to me, a plain ordinary citizen of the US.

If, however, he and wifey-poo continue to own a home or rent an apartment in the US, have an active US bank account, and decide to vacation throughout the world for a year or more, than they have not given up their residency in the US but are part of an elitist social group.

Now I can go and live in Canada (if I can make it across the border) without having landed status. I can stay there for up to six months or a cumulative six months in one year but I have no residency there. I can't work. I can't get Canadian healthcare. I won't be pay taxes as a resident, etc. I will be in essence a USC vacationing in Canada.

As for the I-131, it is great information, but it is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of information and variances. INS and the US Consulate still have the discretionary right to decide if you are eligible for re-entry or if you have abandoned your green card.

So I guess we are at a stalemate for I don't see that any of the information you've provided invalidates what I have tried to say about what constitutes residency.

Rita

I've said the limit of my knowledge in this area.

>>
As for you, you will be returning to the UK with your USC wife. You will have to file for residency for her to live there with you. If you do, than you have established your new residency as the UK and have removed your permanent residency from the US.
>>
I see what you mean, but let me throw a scenario at you given this and also given the tax return point taken up in this thread. The argument is that if you leave the US for more than 183 days, take residence abroad, open a bank account, buy or rent a house, etc. and file taxes showing your address abroad then the INS would view this as you giving up US residency.

But my question has more to do with when does the INS actually *realize* that you are living abroad and flag you in their system as no longer being a permanent US resident?
Let me give you a for example:
I receive my tax forms in February as a greencard holder living in the U.S. I fill them out, send them in, get my rebate or pay my taxes owed in March and my IRS tax return contains my U.S. address at which I'm living. I decide to move to the UK on April 1, go through UK immigration (I doubt the US knows that you are going through UK immigration?) and live in the UK, get a job, open a bank account, all that schmeal. November rolls around and it's been more than 183 days that I've been abroad. I decide that I want to go on a vacation for a few weeks or a month in the US. I have not filed US or UK taxes yet because it's still only November, tax time has not rolled around again. I go through Customs and I show the officer my greencard saying I'm a permanent resident.
My question is, Will the officer know that I'm no longer living in the U.S. and say that my greencard is no good? Or will he not be the wiser? When does the INS actually figure out that I am no longer a permanent resident? As far as I know I don't have to send them my greencard back, nor does UK immigration have to tell the INS that I've been seeking UK permanent residency. It has been less than 1 year. Does INS simply notice that I've been gone more than 183 days and ask me if I'm still living in the U.S.? How about if I came back before November and it's only been a month or two or even less would the INS realize that I am no longer living in the U.S.? Could I just keep coming back to the U.S. every 3 or 6 months and would the INS officially realize that I'm no longer a resident and how would they most likely pick up on that, given that hundreds of thousands of people fly into the U.S. every year?
Thanks,
Matt

INS knowing has nothing to do with your filing taxes. There are Canadians here on the newsgroup who received notification from the Canadian government that they are now non-residents. All without them completing the official non-resident form. How did the Canadian government know? They know because INS told them.

If your wife applies for UK residency status, it is quite likely that the INS will know through a background check on her with perhaps the FBI. Will the UK send notification to the US Consulate that your wife is now a legal resident of the UK? Will the INS match up her name with your name on the computers and thereby know that you are now living and working in the UK?

Your residency is not immediately rescinded. It is when you reapply to enter the US by a re-entry that the issue might be brought up if you have applied for it after the move. If you have applied for it before the move, what are you putting down as the reason for the extended leave from US?

Remember Ameriscott is quoting passages from the I-131 and the INS website and I am quoting what I was told by my consulting immigration attorney and what I "preceive" to be the way of things.

Also there was a US/UK couple who were posters, the Johnsons, and they lived in the US for a while and then returned to the UK and then wanted back into the US. She, the UKC, had to reapply for a green card.

Rita

<<Also there was a US/UK couple who were posters, the Johnsons, and they lived in the US for a while and then returned to the UK and then wanted back into the US. She, the UKC, had to reapply for a green card. >>

But that was after 11 years in the UK.

Thank you ... I didn' remember the length of time outside of the US.

Rita

I've just spent ages looking at the code sections of the INS website to see if I could find out anything new.

I couldn't find a single reference to any restrictions about what you get up to when you are outside the US, apart from not being able to do things that would be against the US national interest and illegal activities (i.e. stuff that would prevent you from getting an immigrant visa in the first place). It does not say that you can't take up a job etc overseas, and doesn't mention anything about different rules in your own country of citizenship vs a third country. There is absolutely no mention of '183 days' (turns up nil on their search engine).

The only thing it says is that you have have been admitted as a LPR before you leave (which goes without saying if you are in possession of a green card), and that you have to get a re-entry permit before you leave the US.

Interestingly, it says that if you naturalise to US citizen, then leave the country to live abroad or a more-or-less permanent basis, this is grounds for expatriation. So it doesn't seem that naturalisation guarantees anything at all. Though I'm sure that it's good for a few years, especially if you do your tax returns.

This is totally consistent with the instructions from my immigration attorney - http://www.fragomen.com . It's also consistent with my own experience of being able to enter the US with my green card after an absence of 10 months, even though I *was* living abroad and had no intentions of re-establishing domicile in the US.

It is perfectly possible to have residences in two countries, and the case of a dual national couple, not that strange or unreasonable. Although we are living in the US, our home is in the UK. Should I not be entitled to my green card bacause I don't have long-term aspirations in the US, or rather should my USC husband not be allowed to live in his own country with his family? What do we mean by long-term? Is it not reasonable to want to spend time in each other's countries, for whatever reasons? Of course it is, and that's why there's no-questions-asked for the first year.

To Timiny, if I were in your shoes, I personally wouldn't worry about this. If I planned to return to the US within the year, I'd just go. If I planned to return within two years, I'd apply for a re-entry permit before I left. If I planned stay out longer than that, I'd just re-apply for a new visa at the London Embassy. I personally wouldn't bother with coming back to the US once a year just to keep my green card current. I don't think that is consistent with the intention of residency, and I don't think there's an awful lot to be gained, given that DCF is very straightforward in London. If it did turn out to be illegal to use a green card in this way, I'd have to assume that big brother would be watching with all the passport scanning that goes on.

BTW, after I had abandoned my first green card, I had no problems using the visa waiver.

One last thing re: departure/arrival procedures. I was in the UK in the last month. I don't recall anyone scanning my green card or passport on leaving the US, on entering the UK, on leaving the UK. I believe my passport was scanned on arriving back, but not the green card (I didn't even show it, funnily enough). My kids left and entered the US on US passports, and entered and left the UK on UK passports. This didn't register any reaction from any POE officer on either side.