Manc

Pimpbot, you're bang on. I've said that for ages.

edwords

The fact is, America has an insane immigration policy that meets the needs of both major politcial parties. America embraces illegals and people from countries with non-Western values. Most of these individuals will work for low wages (which the Republicans love) and demand government-supplied social services (which the Democrats love). Most Brits want to come here, make a good income, have a decent middle class life and generally blend into the scenery. This doesn't meet the needs of the dominant political leaders. So that's why there's low quotas on people from the U.K. (except N.I., thanks to the Kennedys' political needs) and most of the rest of the First World.

Lion in Winter

[QUOTE]Originally posted by edwords
non-Western values





You mean they don't like cowboys or something?

edwords

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lion in Winter
Yes, cowboys, individual rights, democracy... things like that.

Manc

Everytime I go back to Britain I find the media (especially the TV) full of shit about people moving abroad and making new lives for themselves.
There was one on Channel 4 recently about a family who just up sticks and moved to Arizona. Bullshit it was, for a fact what they did was 'just move there' no word of visa, INS or anything. It was garbage and would not be allowed without the realms of Channel 4 bankrolling it. The sad thing is that ordinary folk get taken in by this and actually believe it is a possibility.

quite simply put, if you are not a spouse of a USC, or an extremely needed person then you may as well forget it and look at different avenues. I mean you have an EU passport for christs sake as it is, you have more opportunity than most and yet for some this is still not enough. Yet when they are told they are pissing into the wind then I am the bad guy for telling them how it is, impolite, not giving advice, not sensible, ungrateful for not appreciating someone elses dream.........the list goes on.

Lion in Winter

I'm sorry, but you are wrong here. I have personal experience, including my husband, of people who have put their lives on the line and have been beaten, tortured, persecuted and killed (not my husband, who is very much alive, thank you) while working peacefully to further democracy and respect for rights, both human and individual, in their own country, in this case in Mexico and Guatemala.

edwords

You're correct. I didn't mean to include Mexico or Guatemala (or the rest of Central and South America) in countries with non-Western values (they are, after all, in the West). In fact, I wish we had more legal immigration from the Americas. It's the illegals that are the problem.

ScousePete

You hit the nail on the head there, Manc.

If you are so keen to emigrate, there are fifteen countries in the EU for you to choose to live in (with 3 more soon to come) Why don't you try one of those to fulfill your "dream"?

Lion in Winter

Well thanks for the concession on Mexico and Guatemala. Now, of course, I'm going to pick a bone with you on the rest of the world. China, Thailand, Sri Lanka, India, Pakistan, Phillipines, to name but some, all have had both individuals and movements who have gone through hell to advance democracy and human rights in general in their countries. The point I would like to makes is that it's a bad idea to fall into the trap of making generalisations about countries and cultures. Large numbers of people in the "Western world" have committted the most appalling abuses against their own people and the people of other countries. Others have performed the most noble acts. Same goes for the rest of the planet, sometimes at different point in history. I would also ask for a more charitable view of illegal immigrants from Mexico and parts south. Most of us coming from England have never been unable to feed our families, or worked for a dollar or two for a 12 hour day. Yet in Mexico they do. I have a four-year-old son, and if I were unable to feed him, pay for medicine when he was ill, or get him an education, I would cross any damned border I could, with or without permission. Wouldn't you?

jemetpl

According to the latest opinion polls about 75% of the UK adult propulation has thought about emigration and about 50% have done so seriously. These figures are probably overstated but there is a large chunk of the UK population who think the grass is greener. Most of them can't or won't actually do anything about it. Exclusion from the GC lottery for emigration to the States rules out a whole tranche of these people.

Large numbers have and are buying property and/ or moving into Europe. They tend to be those with language skills or people who have retired. Whatever anyone says, Britain shares very little culture with most of Europe except perhaps for Norway and Denmark.

Over the past five years I've spent about a month a year travelling around different parts of the States and getting to meet lots of Americans. I find the get up and go spirit a refreshing change from the cynicism endemic in British society.

The American culture seems to be to respect success and get out of the way of people trying to achieve something. I'm afraid that exactly the opposite sort of culture has taken root in the UK in the last few years. The sheer weight of bureaucracy and taxation bears down on anyone who wants to be more than a wage slave.

In this context, I hope it's understandable that some of us with gumption look to the US as somewhere which may be better to live. In the short term I plan to buy a holiday home/ investment and, if I find that I really like it, I'll look at one of the investor visas as a means of staying there.

I am one of those who complains a lot about the UK. On balance the frustrations of trying to make a living here are beginning to outweigh the advantages. If you haven't lived here for a while, it's pretty difficult to appreciate the changes that have taken place.

Pimpbot

The thing I find funny, is that since moving to Arizona, I have bumped into 3 or 4 Brits in and around town, and do you know where every conversation has ended up?... with the Brit complaining about Britain, but perticularly the immigration problem. The stupid thing is, they are now living in Arizona, a state that has one of the worst illegal immigration problems in America!. lol

Hey, I guess the grass is greener if the sun is shining.

Manc

I remember someone said that Miami looked like Salford when it is raining!

Duncs

They may have lots of get up and go but in actual fact all the statistical evidence suggests that the UK is more socially mobile than the USA. In truth whatever the American dream might be if you are born poor here you will most likely stay poor you have a better chance of social progress in the UK. The American dream is just an opiate designed to stop people taking real democratic power and altering this society of haves and have-nots.

regards,

Duncan

edwords

I probaby haven't done a good idea of expressing my thoughts. I am for immigration and for more immigrants than we currently take in. I would set only two conditions: that the immigrants follow the legal process and that they are willing to embrace certain basic (i.e. "Western") concepts, such as religious tolerance and political and economic liberty. I would write the immigration laws with those concepts in mind.
Incidentally, my mother was born and lived in one of history's most vicious dictatorships. She married an English soldier and moved with her baby daughter to Portsmouth. So I am not writing as someone with no experience in this area.

OwenF

To those who say I should emigrate to a European country I say this: GO F**K YOURSELVES!!! I would rather be dead than live there.

To those who have offered genuine support I thank you.

To those who say I should be grateful for what I already have I say it is mankinds business to improve his life in whatever way he can.

Finally, I say this. I WILL GO TO AMERICA. Even if it takes me the rest of my life to achieve it. I refuse to give up.