Gaaah! Employers!!
Apr 7th 2010, 3:39 am
#91
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Re: Gaaah! Employers!!
I know that you did not say he did not have it with him. And good for him for carrying it as he should. Others posted how they never carry theirs and that was addressed. Now this is getting to the point of beating a dead horse, so best to agree to disagree and be done with it.
Last edited by dakota44; Apr 7th 2010 at 3:42 am.
Apr 7th 2010, 3:47 am
#92
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Re: Gaaah! Employers!!
You will notice that the I-9 says that denial of employment because of an expiration date may be considered discrimination. Doesn't say it will be, but may be. So one assumes that if the employer has a good reason for being concerned about the expiration date, he's safe. Expiration dates can appear on other things besides the Green Card. If I were hiring someone I might be concerned about an expiration date if the job involved training and the expense involved and the expiration date was in a few months. That might prompt a question about what will happen at expiration, renewal, citizenship, how do I know you will still be here, and I think it is fair to the employer that he be allowed to ask about it, for his own protection.
I think it's interesting how you say you know what the I9 says (in case of both hiring and expiry dates) but you also think it's quite all right to still be concerned about a "better document".
Which makes you, I guess, sort of like my husband's employer.
Apr 7th 2010, 3:48 am
#93
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Re: Gaaah! Employers!!
I know that you did not say he did not have it with him. And good for him for carrying it as he should. Others posted how they never carry theirs and that was addressed. Now this is getting to the point of beating a dead horse, so best to agree to disagree and be done with it.
Apr 7th 2010, 4:03 am
#94
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Re: Gaaah! Employers!!
This is what I thought you'd say.
I think it's interesting how you say you know what the I9 says (in case of both hiring and expiry dates) but you also think it's quite all right to still be concerned about a "better document".
Which makes you, I guess, sort of like my husband's employer.
I think it's interesting how you say you know what the I9 says (in case of both hiring and expiry dates) but you also think it's quite all right to still be concerned about a "better document".
Which makes you, I guess, sort of like my husband's employer.
If anyone is inconvenienced by the regulations, it's natural born Americans who now have to supply more than a verbal recitation of their SSN to get a job. Now we are inconvenienced by having to bring our passport, or items from the other two columns. Never had to submit to an I-9 before. So we should be the ones bitching.
Last edited by dakota44; Apr 7th 2010 at 4:20 am.
Apr 7th 2010, 4:14 am
#95
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Re: Gaaah! Employers!!
I just think that given the paranoia about undocumented workers in the U.S. and the supply of false documents available, the employer should have the right to collect all that he can for his own protection, even if that is no guarantee he won;t be fooled by forgeries. I suppose that I find the ban on asking for the Green Card illogical and I, if in that situation as an immigrant, would gladly show it. Required to or not. That's all. It just strikes me as such a minor problem that it is not worth stressing over. I hope E verify gets totally online soon and then problem solved. Hopefully.
Every employer should have the right to protect himself in the realm of legal workers, and to be certain of the long term availability of whomever he hires. After all, any business has to worry about its own well being.
Every employer should have the right to protect himself in the realm of legal workers, and to be certain of the long term availability of whomever he hires. After all, any business has to worry about its own well being.
But the I9 tells them how to do that. As a business owner, when it comes to complying with any government regulation, you only need do what that particular authority has said, right? If you do that, you aren't in trouble with that authority. Soooooooooooo.......why should you care to go beyond that? Paranoia? A sense of civic duty? I mean, come on, it's not YOUR place to pick out who the illegals are.
Anywho, I'm less concerned about showing the card for purposes of hiring (although I don't like it) than I am about employers using the expiry date as a bone of contention. If employers are literally dumb enough not to understand they don't need to see the green card in the first place, what makes you so sure they aren't dumb enough to use it to harass people (as was indicated in another post) or even to discharge them?
Eh. I digress.
I like it that the I9 gives an alien another way to prove eligibility than showing the card. I personally think we've all done enough of a dance for the government just to be granted residency. We shouldn't have to do the same dance to get or keep a job.
Apr 7th 2010, 4:22 am
#96
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Re: Gaaah! Employers!!
I agree every business should want to make sure they only have hired authorized workers.
But the I9 tells them how to do that. As a business owner, when it comes to complying with any government regulation, you only need do what that particular authority has said, right? If you do that, you aren't in trouble with that authority. Soooooooooooo.......why should you care to go beyond that? Paranoia? A sense of civic duty? I mean, come on, it's not YOUR place to pick out who the illegals are.
Anywho, I'm less concerned about showing the card for purposes of hiring (although I don't like it) than I am about employers using the expiry date as a bone of contention. If employers are literally dumb enough not to understand they don't need to see the green card in the first place, what makes you so sure they aren't dumb enough to use it to harass people (as was indicated in another post) or even to discharge them?
Eh. I digress.
I like it that the I9 gives an alien another way to prove eligibility than showing the card. I personally think we've all done enough of a dance for the government just to be granted residency. We shouldn't have to do the same dance to get or keep a job.
But the I9 tells them how to do that. As a business owner, when it comes to complying with any government regulation, you only need do what that particular authority has said, right? If you do that, you aren't in trouble with that authority. Soooooooooooo.......why should you care to go beyond that? Paranoia? A sense of civic duty? I mean, come on, it's not YOUR place to pick out who the illegals are.
Anywho, I'm less concerned about showing the card for purposes of hiring (although I don't like it) than I am about employers using the expiry date as a bone of contention. If employers are literally dumb enough not to understand they don't need to see the green card in the first place, what makes you so sure they aren't dumb enough to use it to harass people (as was indicated in another post) or even to discharge them?
Eh. I digress.
I like it that the I9 gives an alien another way to prove eligibility than showing the card. I personally think we've all done enough of a dance for the government just to be granted residency. We shouldn't have to do the same dance to get or keep a job.
I think I added this after you quoted. It is valid.
If anyone is inconvenienced by the regulations, it's natural born Americans who now have to supply more than a verbal recitation of their SSN to get a job. Now we are inconvenienced by having to bring our passport, or items from the other two columns. Never had to submit to an I-9 before. So we should be the ones bitching.
Apr 7th 2010, 10:16 am
#97
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Re: Gaaah! Employers!!
I think I added this after you quoted. It is valid.
If anyone is inconvenienced by the regulations, it's natural born Americans who now have to supply more than a verbal recitation of their SSN to get a job. Now we are inconvenienced by having to bring our passport, or items from the other two columns. Never had to submit to an I-9 before. So we should be the ones bitching.
If anyone is inconvenienced by the regulations, it's natural born Americans who now have to supply more than a verbal recitation of their SSN to get a job. Now we are inconvenienced by having to bring our passport, or items from the other two columns. Never had to submit to an I-9 before. So we should be the ones bitching.
The old system was much better.
The one where an employer decides what documents they need by the way a person looks or sounds.
Apr 7th 2010, 12:02 pm
#98
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Re: Gaaah! Employers!!
Originally Posted by Jenney & Mark
Ummm... Yes it is.
The original frustration vented by the OP was that her husband's employer asked him to produce documentation it had no legal authority to request -- and the fact that, by doing so, he felt it might lose his job if he didn't comply.
For some of you, showing the GC obviously isn't a big deal. But the point is that no one should be put in this position in the first place -- and they wouldn't be, if the employer's behavior is legal. In this case, it wasn't. I don't think it's right to put anyone down just because they don't feel like caving into pressure, particularly when a law exists to protect them from that pressure in the first place.
~ Jenney
The original frustration vented by the OP was that her husband's employer asked him to produce documentation it had no legal authority to request -- and the fact that, by doing so, he felt it might lose his job if he didn't comply.
For some of you, showing the GC obviously isn't a big deal. But the point is that no one should be put in this position in the first place -- and they wouldn't be, if the employer's behavior is legal. In this case, it wasn't. I don't think it's right to put anyone down just because they don't feel like caving into pressure, particularly when a law exists to protect them from that pressure in the first place.
~ Jenney
LOL~ Jenney
Apr 7th 2010, 3:18 pm
#99
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Re: Gaaah! Employers!!
Errrrr, there WERE no documents required of natural born U.S. citizens until the I-9 was instituted to keep track of immigrants with permission to work. So not sure what old system you're thinking about. I never produced anything to obtain a job, only verbally provided my SSN. That's the point of what I was saying. Americans now have to provide things they never had to before. So really, the true inconvenience is on them but doubt you want to hear them complain that they went for a job and were asked to produce items they never had to produce before. We now have to prove that we are American, even when it may be an obvious fact. The largest majority of the population is now required to provide documentation previously not required, all because of immigration. So we, the majority, are the ones who could really bitch if we wanted, and no doubt some do. But, I'll bet you have no concern for them. Now maybe you get the point. We're not that fussy about hearing someone bitch that they were asked for their green card, while we are asked for documents we never had to provide before. And, documents or no, plenty of people are hired, or not, on the basis of how they look or sound. Fact of life. Always will be.
Last edited by dakota44; Apr 7th 2010 at 3:26 pm.
Apr 7th 2010, 4:29 pm
#100
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Re: Gaaah! Employers!!
Green card - schmeen card.
I've been working in the US for 20 years now and have never bothered with one.
Pah!
I've been working in the US for 20 years now and have never bothered with one.
Pah!
Apr 7th 2010, 4:39 pm
#101
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Apr 7th 2010, 4:43 pm
#102
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Apr 7th 2010, 5:24 pm
#103
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Joined: Aug 2007
Location: Ohio
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Re: Gaaah! Employers!!
Errrrr, there WERE no documents required of natural born U.S. citizens until the I-9 was instituted to keep track of immigrants with permission to work. So not sure what old system you're thinking about. I never produced anything to obtain a job, only verbally provided my SSN. That's the point of what I was saying. Americans now have to provide things they never had to before. So really, the true inconvenience is on them but doubt you want to hear them complain that they went for a job and were asked to produce items they never had to produce before. We now have to prove that we are American, even when it may be an obvious fact. The largest majority of the population is now required to provide documentation previously not required, all because of immigration. So we, the majority, are the ones who could really bitch if we wanted, and no doubt some do. But, I'll bet you have no concern for them. Now maybe you get the point. We're not that fussy about hearing someone bitch that they were asked for their green card, while we are asked for documents we never had to provide before. And, documents or no, plenty of people are hired, or not, on the basis of how they look or sound. Fact of life. Always will be.
Apr 7th 2010, 7:48 pm
#104
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 35,082
Re: Gaaah! Employers!!
You will notice that the I-9 says that denial of employment because of an expiration date may be considered discrimination. Doesn't say it will be, but may be. So one assumes that if the employer has a good reason for being concerned about the expiration date, he's safe. Expiration dates can appear on other things besides the Green Card. If I were hiring someone I might be concerned about an expiration date if the job involved training and the expense involved and the expiration date was in a few months. That might prompt a question about what will happen at expiration, renewal, citizenship, how do I know you will still be here, and I think it is fair to the employer that he be allowed to ask about it, for his own protection.
I can't keep quiet on this any longer; the things you're saying no longer make sense.
Some documents have an expiration date. My driver's license, for example. My passport for another (I am a born USC). Every PR card now has an expiration date... what the hell are you (the hypothetical employer) doing judging someone's availability by the expiration date of their document other than potentially an EAD (temporary work permit)? Citizenship? Are you kidding me? This hypothetical employment needs to be lifelong servitude?
I think you've gone a bit too far there, dakota. There are other ways to get that information (like, uh, uncovering it in the interview before you hire them?)
I thought you would be more empathetic being as you're living outside your own home country, but maybe your papers are in order and you work for yourself so you can't relate.
Apr 7th 2010, 7:51 pm
#105
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 35,082
Re: Gaaah! Employers!!
FACT: Social Security card and photo ID were required hiring documents prior to I-9.
For different reasons, but nonetheless.