Originally posted by effi
I guess it takes one to know one, isn't it past your bedtime?

Originally posted by effi
Of course it bothers me, it should bother everyone in this country. Unfortunately in this country you have to be careful nowadays about raising your voice. Most of the time though it does no good. Example. Bush was here in AZ I think it was last week. Protestors gathered and were moved over a quarter of a mile away from the venue. Bush could neither see nor hear them. What good did they do? This is the type of thing that is going on.

Sorry but I don't get the last sentence you wrote, who don't I like? The only person I said I did not like was Bush, is that wrong in your opinion? I also think the phrase "if you don't like it here, then go home" is perfectly reasonable. You are not going to change anything unless Bush gets voted out next year and someone more reasonable gets in. That is a big if though isn't it, after what he did last time, who is to say it will not happen again.

Originally posted by Bookworm
.......So, if you want Bush removed from office, than apply for you citizenship and make a difference by voting. .....

Originally posted by Bookworm
Sorry, I didn't make myself clear enough. What I meant was that "go home" is usually used by rather narrow-minded people and/or people who are on the border between being patriotic/nationalistic. I'm not implying by anyway that you belong in either group, as you were clearly quoting people who use that phrase. I see from most of you postings that you don't like what's going on. We just disagree on a) taking it silent vs. opposing b) is there anything you/we can do.
So, if you want Bush removed from office, than apply for you citizenship and make a difference by voting. You have the chance. I don't - so all I can do is open declare my criticism. You can not hide behind "my vote wouldn't make a difference". That doesn't work! The basis of democracy, that you and I advocate, depends on exercising your democratic rights.

Originally posted by effi
Maybe I will do it next year. Got nothing to lose I guess, and yes maybe my vote will make a difference.

Originally posted by dunroving
You seem to imply that this is the only way to make a difference or remove Bush from office. Why do you think this? Having one vote among 200 million (estimate) can be far less effective than having one voice...... so I think we should be encouraging people to use their voices (regardless of their immigration status), rather than telling them to go home.

Originally posted by croesx
Ah, so you can agree on something!!!! You can dish but can't take. I don't believe in being passive aggressive, I just tell you what I think, baby...

Originally posted by effi
So do I "baby", and I am telling you once and for all, it is past your bed time.

Originally posted by croesx
awesome!!!!! I'm sorry about the c.nt remark, that was low of me, I apologize.

Originally posted by effi
Sorry to butt in, but the way things are going in this country, the voices are not being heard either. When protestors are being kept a distance away to render their protest meaningless, how can you get the point across? I watched Sean Penn on 60 minutes last nite and he said that because he spoke out about the war, he was being labeled unpatriotic. This seems to be the new "buzz word" at the moment. No one wants to be labeled as unpatriotic, they just want to have their say. Unfortunately they are being shot down all over the place.

Originally posted by dunroving
Sorry to butt in? What are you sorry about?

Certainly, speaking out can get you "in trouble" and doesn't always literally get heard by those for whom it was intended. However, the fact that you are aware of the issues you mention illustrates my point - the publicity associated with speaking out can be a powerful tool, and affect the votes of many. So, their protest was not "meaningless" (despite the fact they were kept out of earshot from the people their protest was aimed at) if it is broadcast over the airwaves and affects voters.

On the other hand, not only will you get just one vote, it will only count as one vote. And no one else's vote will be affected by your vote.

Originally posted by Bookworm
You were fingerprinted for your visa application??? I wasn't.

Originally posted by effi
No sweetie, I did not miss the point, and I never jump to conclusions if I can help it. As you stated, you have almost all of the rights of an American citizen, but you are not one are you? So, I say again, what gives you the right to critisize the way things are done in this country? Please don't get me wrong, I hate Bush and everything he stands for. A president who proclaims that he was put into office by God has got to have a few screws loose. As for Ashcroft, well, he is a religous zealot. The fact remains though that he was voted in, therefore what he does in regard to policies in this country is on the behalf of the people who voted for him, he is their voice. By voting for him the US public gave him the right to do things on their behalf. I also still believe that if I had voted for him (by the way I was not eligible at the time) it still would have made no difference. Look at the thousands of people who did vote, only to have their votes thrown out. All the people on this board want to be here in the US, including me. Why is it though that once people move to this country and discover it is not the land of opportunity they thought it was going to be, that they all start whining about what a raw deal they are getting. To answer the original posting, yes I agree with being fingerprinted if I am not a US subject. What is so bad about it, you have all been fingerprinted for your applications to be here, did you whine about it when you were down the INS office applying, or refuse to do it, I think not. Respect my opinion, just as I respect yours and stop acting like a 5 year old who has had his toys taken away from him.

Originally posted by Duncs
I looked at the DHS info and it seems to apply to visitors so i would hazard a guess that perm residents would not be treated the same. Wont know until someone goes through after jan 1st.

Still doesnt change the point about expressing your opinion in the USA. My wife will tell you you could never shut me up anyhow.

Taffyles. sorry to hear about your relative.

regards,

Duncan

Originally posted by Bookworm
C'mon! You don't really want to imply that you have to make a choice between voting and voicing. That's ridiculous! You can do both and you know that.