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Does this suck or what

Does this suck or what

Old Jun 2nd 2004, 4:13 pm
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Army Issues Order to Stop U.S. Soldiers from Leaving

Jun 2, 10:41 AM (ET)

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Army has issued an order preventing thousands of soldiers designated for duty in Iraq or Afghanistan from leaving the military even when their volunteer service commitment expires, officials said on Wednesday.
The move to extend the service of some soldiers involuntarily was the latest sign of increasing stress on the Army as the Pentagon strives to maintain adequate troop levels in the two conflicts.

Lt. Gen. Franklin Hagenbeck, the Army's personnel chief, denied that the move was a sign of desperation for the Army, although he did acknowledge that the Army was "stretched."

The Army issued so-called "stop loss" and "stop movement" orders for soldiers in all units that will deploy outside the United States to take part in future missions in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Army has previously issued such orders covering some troops in the two conflicts, but not as broadly as the latest move. Since the attacks on the United States on Sept. 11, 2001, some 45,000 soldiers have been affected by similar orders, Hagenbeck said.

The "stop loss" order means that soldiers who otherwise could leave the service when their volunteer commitments expire, starting 90 days before being sent, will be compelled to remain to the end of their overseas deployment and up to another 90 days after they come home.

A "stop movement" order blocks soldiers from shifting to new assignments during the restricted period.

Army spokesmen were unable to give a figure for how many soldiers would be affected by the orders beyond saying it will be in the thousands.
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Old Jun 2nd 2004, 6:07 pm
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While unfortunate for those who want out, this is a known risk in the military- as is being killed, wounded, sent to god awful deserts to fight, etc etc. They also have the right to call you back(inactive reserves) for 2 years after your discharge.

Maybe if they scream and bitch and whine about the contract they knowingly entered into- like Michael Moore and his movie... maybe they will be let out?
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Old Jun 2nd 2004, 6:31 pm
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Originally posted by ironporer
While unfortunate for those who want out, this is a known risk in the military- as is being killed, wounded, sent to god awful deserts to fight, etc etc. They also have the right to call you back(inactive reserves) for 2 years after your discharge.

Maybe if they scream and bitch and whine about the contract they knowingly entered into- like Michael Moore and his movie... maybe they will be let out?
Erm......a question.....is America really the "Land of the Free"?
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Old Jun 2nd 2004, 6:37 pm
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Originally posted by Lothianlad
Erm......a question.....is America really the "Land of the Free"?
Not so..according to Mein Fuhrer Carter of my residents association...
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Old Jun 2nd 2004, 7:20 pm
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Originally posted by Lothianlad
Erm......a question.....is America really the "Land of the Free"?
In this case, each soldier is free to sign the enlistment contract, or not sign it. Once having signed it, he is free to break the contract, and suffer the consequances of that- just like anyone who signs any other contract.
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Old Jun 2nd 2004, 8:03 pm
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It's quite a common thing you can't leave the British army in time of conflict otherwise everyone with half an ounce of common sense would leave.
You're also a reservist for a varing length of time after you demob and liable for recall.
I don't see the problem it's part of joining the army it's what they do. If you don't like that prospect be a milkman.
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Old Jun 2nd 2004, 8:11 pm
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Originally posted by Lothianlad
Erm......a question.....is America really the "Land of the Free"?

I reckon we Brits probably have more freedom than Americans. We have the freedom to go on holiday to Cuba if we want but Americans don't.

We also have the freedom to live and work in any EEC member state, but Americans don't.

If we reside in the UK we have free healthcare regardless of income or savings and pre-existing conditions. Americans living in the US have to be pretty much on the poverty line to get free healthcare.

I still don't really know what the average American means by the term 'Land of the Free'. I think that equally, the United Kingdom is the "Land of the Free" in modern times.:lecture:
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Old Jun 2nd 2004, 8:51 pm
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Originally posted by ironporer
While unfortunate for those who want out, this is a known risk in the military- as is being killed, wounded, sent to god awful deserts to fight, etc etc. They also have the right to call you back(inactive reserves) for 2 years after your discharge.

Maybe if they scream and bitch and whine about the contract they knowingly entered into- like Michael Moore and his movie... maybe they will be let out?
Hate to quibble, and off topic too, but it's Disney who screamed and bitched and whined about the Moore contract isn't it, and who backed out, too. Moore just screamed and bitched and whined about them doing so, as well he might. Anyway, check Coming Soon to a Theatre Near You on the Take it Outside forum. He's back......
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Old Jun 2nd 2004, 9:22 pm
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Originally posted by Englishmum
I reckon we Brits probably have more freedom than Americans. We have the freedom to go on holiday to Cuba if we want but Americans don't.

We also have the freedom to live and work in any EEC member state, but Americans don't.

If we reside in the UK we have free healthcare regardless of income or savings and pre-existing conditions. Americans living in the US have to be pretty much on the poverty line to get free healthcare.

I still don't really know what the average American means by the term 'Land of the Free'. I think that equally, the United Kingdom is the "Land of the Free" in modern times.:lecture:

Free things are not always the best. and dont come with much of a choice.

i'd rather be able to pay for my healthcare than receive free healthcare. same applies to tuition fees, housing, transport, etc.

that way i can make the best suited choice.

the US is not part of the EU so you wouldnt expect americans to be live and work in the EU freely. just like brits cant just come and work here freely. what were you thinking writing that down?
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Old Jun 2nd 2004, 9:33 pm
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Originally posted by Gross50
Free things are not always the best. and dont come with much of a choice.

i'd rather be able to pay for my healthcare than receive free healthcare. same applies to tuition fees, housing, transport, etc.

that way i can make the best suited choice.

the US is not part of the EU so you wouldnt expect americans to be live and work in the EU freely. just like brits cant just come and work here freely. what were you thinking writing that down?

On healthcare, in the US you can only make the best choice if you've got the bank account to pay for it. Same goes for schools, housing and transport. Those who are not well paid, who do not have decent health insurance provided by their employer (a huge quantity of people), cannot make any choice at all.

People call this the Land of the Free without thinking much about what that actually means. It is also called the land of opportunity, and there are certainly opportunities here to be had, but the opportunities are not equal for all because the starting line is not in the same place for all of us. It doesn't make much sense to pretend that someone who grows up in an inner-city housing project in Chicago is starting from the same place as someone who grew up in middle-class suburbia.
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Old Jun 3rd 2004, 12:15 am
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Originally posted by Lion in Winter
On healthcare, in the US you can only make the best choice if you've got the bank account to pay for it. Same goes for schools, housing and transport. Those who are not well paid, who do not have decent health insurance provided by their employer (a huge quantity of people), cannot make any choice at all.

People call this the Land of the Free without thinking much about what that actually means. It is also called the land of opportunity, and there are certainly opportunities here to be had, but the opportunities are not equal for all because the starting line is not in the same place for all of us. It doesn't make much sense to pretend that someone who grows up in an inner-city housing project in Chicago is starting from the same place as someone who grew up in middle-class suburbia.
Not to quibble, but all things being as they are, why are there millions lined up to come here, including a huge number of Brits?

As to health care the vast majority have decent coverage, and the vocal minority have minimal, none (many by their own choice to not participate), or medicaid...which is totally free. Our system is far from perfect, and many changes can and should be made, but in only a few cases is it as bad as some make it out to be.
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Old Jun 3rd 2004, 12:50 am
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Originally posted by ironporer
Not to quibble, but all things being as they are, why are there millions lined up to come here, including a huge number of Brits?

As to health care the vast majority have decent coverage, and the vocal minority have minimal, none (many by their own choice to not participate), or medicaid...which is totally free. Our system is far from perfect, and many changes can and should be made, but in only a few cases is it as bad as some make it out to be.

Well according to these doctors, there are some 43 million American citizens with no health insurance, not counting those with inadequate insurance.

http://www.pnhp.org/

As to the Brits coming here, there are about 6 hundred and some thousand Brits in the US. That leaves about 59 million at home. They don't come for the health insurance. I'm self employed and work hard. I don't choose to be uninsured. The amount of coverage I can afford to buy as an individual doesn't begin to cover the costs of healthcare. To get something vaguely equivalent to what I would get if I had a decent job in a good-sized company I would have to fork over $500 - 700 a month. Where my husband works they offer him family membership in a plan that would still cost us $500.00 a month. Can't do it.

Of course there are many good things about this country, but the insufficient public funding for healthcare is not one of them. Ditto education. Brits and Europeans in general pay much higher taxes than Americans and (when we are not paying for missiles to throw at Iraq) we use these taxes for things that are considered common goods. We all pay so that we all benefit, is the concept. The whole society benefits from decent universal health care and decent universal education. Here, the philosophy is much more individualistic.
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Old Jun 3rd 2004, 1:01 am
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Originally posted by Lion in Winter
I'm self employed and work hard. I don't choose to be uninsured. The amount of coverage I can afford to buy as an individual doesn't begin to cover the costs of healthcare. To get something vaguely equivalent to what I would get if I had a decent job in a good-sized company I would have to fork over $500 - 700 a month. Where my husband works they offer him family membership in a plan that would still cost us $500.00 a month. Can't do it.

Of course there are many good things about this country, but the insufficient public funding for healthcare is not one of them. Ditto education. Brits and Europeans in general pay much higher taxes than Americans and (when we are not paying for missiles to throw at Iraq) we use these taxes for things that are considered common goods. We all pay so that we all benefit, is the concept. The whole society benefits from decent universal health care and decent universal education. Here, the philosophy is much more individualistic.
why dont you move to britain. free healthcare, dole money, free housing, subsidised education. and you wont have to work or pay taxes for all this and much more.
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Old Jun 3rd 2004, 1:17 am
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Originally posted by Gross50
Free things are not always the best. and dont come with much of a choice.

i'd rather be able to pay for my healthcare than receive free healthcare. same applies to tuition fees, housing, transport, etc.

that way i can make the best suited choice.

the US is not part of the EU so you wouldnt expect americans to be live and work in the EU freely. just like brits cant just come and work here freely. what were you thinking writing that down?
Freedom of choice is a good thing. However I think freedom from the worry that you might die if you catch a treatable disease is something Brits also benefit from.

I think the point about the EU is that Brits can choose to walk into 25 countries and live and work without much hassle. This is a massive freedom in my mind. Americans can only really live in their own nation...well I suppose Canada is an option but they are making this difficult to do since 911.

Originally posted by Gross50
why dont you move to britain. free healthcare, dole money, free housing, subsidised education. and you wont have to work or pay taxes for all this and much more.
It's a welfare state, i.e it cares whether it's poorer citizens live or die. Yes some people abuse the system to no ends but I beleive Blair and co are dealing with this.

Last edited by jambo_2004; Jun 3rd 2004 at 1:24 am.
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Old Jun 3rd 2004, 1:20 am
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Originally posted by Gross50
why dont you move to britain. free healthcare, dole money, free housing, subsidised education. and you wont have to work or pay taxes for all this and much more.
Because I heard a little voice that said "go to the US and suffer and you will reap rewards a bit later on".

I keep forgetting that if one says anything even remotely negative about this country one must leave at once. There is such as thing as criticising in order to make things better - a lot of native born red-blooded Americans have done it, down the years.
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