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Do UK workplace group personal pensions need to be reported on FBAR?

Do UK workplace group personal pensions need to be reported on FBAR?

Old Mar 28th 2014, 3:05 pm
  #61  
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Default Re: Do UK workplace group personal pensions need to be reported on FBAR?

Originally Posted by Nightwatch77
Nun - cheers
durham_lad - I agree. It's such a small amount and there was zero intention of being dishonest.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, it seems that most or all types of UK pensions are covered by the treaty and while most will be FBAR reportable there are two routes to take:

1. Put it on the FBAR. That's it. No contributions/gains mentioned anywhere else. When it comes to retirement some tax will be due.

2. Establish a basis in the pension, which, from what my simple mind understands, means mentioning contributions and gains and using foreign tax credits to cover them. While more complex it means that the amount to be taxed in the future is smaller.

Honestly, I can't tell you how refreshing it is to see an easy-to-follow debate on this topic. Still, I guess we'll all know concrete answers if and when the IRS says something. It does seem, from what others suggest here, that they don't seek to punish expats with 'regular' pensions and income, despite the way people make FATCA sound like a death sentence to anyone living overseas.
Essentially correct.

FBAR will be required whatever approach you take.

Using the treaty you can defer tax on contributions and gains and then pay income tax when you take income. This approach is simple. Some people take the stance that invoking the treaty does not remove the requirement to file foreign trust or PFIC forms.

In the other approach you pay tax on contributions (and maybe gains) and defray the US tax with foreign tax credits. This approach probably does require full reporting of foreign trusts and PFIC, but might be financially better than the first approach for the US expat who intends to retire in the US.
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Old Mar 28th 2014, 3:11 pm
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Default Re: Do UK workplace group personal pensions need to be reported on FBAR?

Got it. Cheers. It seems like the advice on the Group Personal Pension Plan was logical and from now on she'll put it on her FBAR but not mention anywhere else. As this organisation is one of the biggest expat tax companies I imagine they'll be dealing with pension questions day in day out and have good reasons for the advice they give.

I believe a Group Personal Pension Plan is defined contribution anyway, from what I've read.

PFIC and foreign trust forms seems a ridiculous ask of an average person with an average pension, I can't imagine a sensible IRS member of staff thinking they're absolute necessities.

Last edited by Nightwatch77; Mar 28th 2014 at 3:19 pm.
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Old Jul 17th 2014, 2:00 am
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Default Re: Do UK workplace group personal pensions need to be reported on FBAR?

Hello, looking for some help... I'm one of those who has become caught up in the FBAR and FATCHA "game". I filed FBAR for 2013 before the June deadline only to realize after the deadline I'd forgotten my UK pensions.

There seems to be a lot of ambiguity over reporting foreign pensions schemes, mine were employer administered final salary schemes. Unfortunately I didn't make arrangements to have anything forwarded to me when I moved to the US and to really make things interesting I don't have my NI information or remember the exact dates I was enrolled in each scheme. Long story short, hell may likely freeze before I can get any info on the values of the benefits from each scheme.

I've been told I need to file an amended FBAR asap and give a reason why the pensions weren't initially included, but since I don't have the "values"... and likely won't for some months what do I do?

I know I can use "0" on the 8938 form for the pensions, but I don't see anywhere in the rules that say I can do that on the 114a form.

Any help/advice would be gratefully received. Many thanks.

Z.S.
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Old Jul 17th 2014, 3:14 am
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Default Re: Do UK workplace group personal pensions need to be reported on FBAR?

Originally Posted by zuluswede
Hello, looking for some help... I'm one of those who has become caught up in the FBAR and FATCHA "game". I filed FBAR for 2013 before the June deadline only to realize after the deadline I'd forgotten my UK pensions.

There seems to be a lot of ambiguity over reporting foreign pensions schemes, mine were employer administered final salary schemes. Unfortunately I didn't make arrangements to have anything forwarded to me when I moved to the US and to really make things interesting I don't have my NI information or remember the exact dates I was enrolled in each scheme. Long story short, hell may likely freeze before I can get any info on the values of the benefits from each scheme.

I've been told I need to file an amended FBAR asap and give a reason why the pensions weren't initially included, but since I don't have the "values"... and likely won't for some months what do I do?

I know I can use "0" on the 8938 form for the pensions, but I don't see anywhere in the rules that say I can do that on the 114a form.

Any help/advice would be gratefully received. Many thanks.

Z.S.
There is no ambiguity over the treatment of UK employer administered final salary schemes. They DO NOT need to be entered on FBAR, who told you that you needed to include them on FBAR?

I would strongly encourage you to get your NI information...it should be on any UK passport you have....so you can keep up to date with your UK pensions and state pension benefits.

FYI there is also no reason to include the pensions on your 1040 in any way until you start taking income. If you are still a US resident when that happens you need to file a US-Individual-2002 with the IRS who will forward it to HMRC and you will receive your UK pensions free of any UK income tax.
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Old Jul 17th 2014, 1:48 pm
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Default Re: Do UK workplace group personal pensions need to be reported on FBAR?

Nun, thank you so much for your reply and your advice. I really appreciate it.

I went to a tax attorney for advice on what to do about delinquent filings for previous years. His suggested that I should take a conservative approach and report the UK pensions on the FBAR.

I've sent CA5403 to HMRC. My UK passport doesn't seem to have anything that resembles an NI number.

I've been trying to find the relevant evidence on the IRS website that specifically excludes UK company pension schemes from FBAR requirements without much luck. Would you happen to know where in the FBAR rules it says employer administered foreign pension schemes are exempt?
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Old Jul 18th 2014, 4:37 pm
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Default Re: Do UK workplace group personal pensions need to be reported on FBAR?

Originally Posted by zuluswede
Nun, thank you so much for your reply and your advice. I really appreciate it.

I went to a tax attorney for advice on what to do about delinquent filings for previous years. His suggested that I should take a conservative approach and report the UK pensions on the FBAR.

I've sent CA5403 to HMRC. My UK passport doesn't seem to have anything that resembles an NI number.

I've been trying to find the relevant evidence on the IRS website that specifically excludes UK company pension schemes from FBAR requirements without much luck. Would you happen to know where in the FBAR rules it says employer administered foreign pension schemes are exempt?
Ask your attorney which Section of the law he is relying on as no-one else would agree with this position.

It is quite clear that an employer sponsored pension where the employer invested more than 50% of the money and that has not been rolled over:
1. Goes on Form 8938 each year
2. Does not go on an FBAR
3. Does need to be reported on a 3520-A
4. Does not need to be reported on a 3520
5. May need to be mentioned an a Form 8833 each year (there are different views over this)
6. Does not require Form 8621 filing even if it is invested in PFICs

If you are delinquent for previous years, you should be considering the new streamlined procedure.
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Old Jul 18th 2014, 10:14 pm
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Default Re: Do UK workplace group personal pensions need to be reported on FBAR?

Originally Posted by Cook_County
Ask your attorney which Section of the law he is relying on as no-one else would agree with this position.

It is quite clear that an employer sponsored pension where the employer invested more than 50% of the money and that has not been rolled over:
1. Goes on Form 8938 each year
2. Does not go on an FBAR
3. Does need to be reported on a 3520-A
4. Does not need to be reported on a 3520
5. May need to be mentioned an a Form 8833 each year (there are different views over this)
6. Does not require Form 8621 filing even if it is invested in PFICs

If you are delinquent for previous years, you should be considering the new streamlined procedure.
Thanks very much for the above info CC. I'll certainly try and get an answer from him and post back. He did mention that he was going to do a streamlined procedure for my case (I'm hoping that's a good thing).
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Old Jul 18th 2014, 11:38 pm
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Default Re: Do UK workplace group personal pensions need to be reported on FBAR?

Originally Posted by Cook_County
Ask your attorney which Section of the law he is relying on as no-one else would agree with this position.

It is quite clear that an employer sponsored pension where the employer invested more than 50% of the money and that has not been rolled over:
1. Goes on Form 8938 each year
2. Does not go on an FBAR
3. Does need to be reported on a 3520-A
4. Does not need to be reported on a 3520
5. May need to be mentioned an a Form 8833 each year (there are different views over this)
6. Does not require Form 8621 filing even if it is invested in PFICs
Employer pension plans go on form 8938, but do not need to be reported on either 3520 or 3520-A. The IRS has never asked anyone for this. (in fact, same applies to other pension accounts).

If you are delinquent for previous years, you should be considering the new streamlined procedure.

Delinquent in what? Tax returns or FBAR? If it's simply an FBAR mistake there's no need to use streamlined anything and realistically, filing correctly going forward is in general acceptable.

Last edited by JAJ; Jul 18th 2014 at 11:42 pm.
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Old Jul 18th 2014, 11:41 pm
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Default Re: Do UK workplace group personal pensions need to be reported on FBAR?

Originally Posted by zuluswede
Thanks very much for the above info CC. I'll certainly try and get an answer from him and post back. He did mention that he was going to do a streamlined procedure for my case (I'm hoping that's a good thing).
Did you file your tax returns or not? If so, then why would you consider this "streamlined procedure"? Unless there were some really significant errors in your tax returns, is that the case?

If the only issue is that your FBAR wasn't filed correctly (or at all) but your tax returns were correct, then you can just file the outstanding FBAR forms, thousands have done this already. Or just file correctly going forward, thousands have also done this. Not sure why it needs to be complicated.
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Old Jul 19th 2014, 3:33 am
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Default Re: Do UK workplace group personal pensions need to be reported on FBAR?

Originally Posted by JAJ
Did you file your tax returns or not? If so, then why would you consider this "streamlined procedure"? Unless there were some really significant errors in your tax returns, is that the case?
JAJ many thanks for your input. I have filed tax returns for every year I have been resident. The delinquent FBARs are necessary because one of the "accounts" was an "endowment life policy" attached to my UK mortgage. Long story short my CPA told me the policy was exempt... I assumed he meant "forever" and didn't include the value when it matured in my FBAR calculations for the subsequent years.
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Old Jul 19th 2014, 4:32 am
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Default Re: Do UK workplace group personal pensions need to be reported on FBAR?

I apologise for "re-hashing" this info but I wanted to post the following which I think presents the argument as to why a UK employer administered pension schemes is exempt from FBAR (at least to my simple understanding).

UK US Tax Treaty
Article 3 paragraph 1 sub-paragraph o) states:
the term "pension scheme" means any plan, scheme, fund, trust or other arrangement established in a Contracting State which is:
(i) generally exempt from income taxation in that State; and
(ii) operated principally to administer or provide pension or retirement benefits or to earn income for the benefit of one or more such arrangements.
US UK Tax Treaty Exchange of Notes
With reference to sub-paragraph o) of paragraph 1 of Article 3 (General Definitions):
It is understood that pension schemes shall include the following and any identical or
substantially similar schemes which are established pursuant to legislation introduced after the
date of signature of the Convention:
a) under the law of the United Kingdom, employment-related arrangements (other than a social security scheme) approved as retirement benefit schemes for the purposes of Chapter I of Part XIV of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988, and personal pension schemes approved under Chapter IV of Part XIV of that Act; and
b) under the law of the United States, qualified plans under section 401(a) of the Internal Revenue Code, individual retirement plans (including individual retirement plans that are part of a simplified employee pension plan that satisfies section 408(k), individual retirement accounts, individual retirement annuities, section 408(p) accounts, and Roth IRAs under section 408A), section 403(a) qualified annuity plans, and section 403(b) plans.
Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (FBAR)
Exceptions to the Reporting Requirement
Exceptions to the FBAR reporting requirements can be found in the FBAR instructions. There are filing exceptions for the following United States persons or foreign financial accounts:

The list includes "Participants in and beneficiaries of tax-qualified retirement plans" as exempt from reporting.

The FBAR Instructions (page 7) provides the expanded explanation for "Participants in and Beneficiaries of Tax-Qualified Retirement Plans" as "A participant in or beneficiary of a retirement plan described in Internal Revenue Code section 401(a), 403(a), or 403(b) is not required to report a foreign financial account held by or on behalf of the retirement plan"
So by virtue of the treaty and the accompany notes, a "UK pension scheme" is the same as a "US qualified retirement plan" provided it meets the regulatory conditions
of the "competent authority" in the UK, if it does, then it is "Tax-Qualified" under the rules of the "competent authority" in the US and as such not required to be reported under the FBAR because of the exemption for "Participants in and Beneficiaries of Tax-Qualified Retirement Plans".

QED or semantic wish full thinking? Comments very welcome.
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Old Jul 19th 2014, 6:22 am
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Default Re: Do UK workplace group personal pensions need to be reported on FBAR?

Originally Posted by zuluswede
JAJ many thanks for your input. I have filed tax returns for every year I have been resident. The delinquent FBARs are necessary because one of the "accounts" was an "endowment life policy" attached to my UK mortgage. Long story short my CPA told me the policy was exempt... I assumed he meant "forever" and didn't include the value when it matured in my FBAR calculations for the subsequent years.
Are you asking about pensions or endowments? Two different questions, you are likely to get confusing information if you mix them up.

So you filed your tax returns every year. This endowment is only taxable if it made a profit on disposal/maturity - is that the case? Endowments are not good investments and there could just as easily be a loss as a profit. No profit = no income.

IF there was a profit, then it was taxable, however you need to understand that you're not under the same obligation to amend your tax return as you were to file it in the first place. In other words, if you believed in good faith that your tax return was correct when you signed it, you are not obliged to amend simply because you discovered a mistake.

Also, when did this endowment disposal take place? If more than 3 years ago, it's ordinarily outside the statute of limitations. There are circumstances where the statute of limitations goes to 6 years, but this is quite unusual.

As for FBAR, it should be respected but the scaremongering greatly overstates the reality in 99+% of situations. These are the kind of cases that the IRS advertise as successful prosecutions, most people come nowhere near anything like this.
Offshore Tax-Avoidance and IRS Compliance Efforts

Are you really sure you have to do anything?
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Old Jul 19th 2014, 7:48 am
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Default Re: Do UK workplace group personal pensions need to be reported on FBAR?

Your Tax Treaty wording approach makes complete sense to a layman, familiar with the UK pension environment. Of course they're retirement plans, just like 401(s); stricter, in fact, until the recent legislation change about removing the need to annuitise them.

On the other hand, it still seems a grey area, and I wouldn't like to stake money on anyone at the Treasury Dept having actually read the relevant Tax Treaty. It seems pretty clear cut that final salary schemes are excluded from FBAR, due to a lack of signatory authority as to the disposition of funds (try telling the fund managers that you'd like 'your pot' invested in emerging markets this year). But defined contribution..?

I dunno... we were told by a Big Four accounting firm it wasn't required when they did our accounts for 2012; another poster here reported the same after contacting the Treasury Dept. For 2013, when we had to file FBAR anyway just based on cash accounts, we included the 3 defined contribution pensions we had, but put 'not known' as the highest value during the calendar year (which is strictly true; they're invested in zombie-style in-house funds, not neatly internet-quoted funds with capital letter ticker names. It's simply not possible to put a figure on it rounded to the nearest dollar, so the answer to 'what was the highest value during the calendar year' genuinely is 'not known', as anything else would be a guess).

So I figure we showed willing in reporting them, so the authorities will know they exist in 20 years when they become due for payment, and in the meantime no one will actually care as they're not taxable anyway. It's no bother to report the account number, financial institution address, etc, so may as well include them on the form.

We will need to file FBAR for 2014 too based just on cash accounts, so I'm hoping that the next couple of years will shed some light on it all and perhaps tidy up the ridiculous discrepancies between FBAR and 8938 limits on reporting foreign accounts. Early in 2014, we onshored all our cash to the US; it would be nice to be able to dump the pointless reporting requirements of our UK pensions for the next couple of decades.
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Old Jul 19th 2014, 2:52 pm
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Default Re: Do UK workplace group personal pensions need to be reported on FBAR?

Originally Posted by JAJ
Are you asking about pensions or endowments? Two different questions, you are likely to get confusing information if you mix them up.
Sorry for the confusion. My query was about whether the pensions needed to be included in FBAR (form 114). The endowment was the "trigger" for FBAR reporting.
Originally Posted by JAJ
So you filed your tax returns every year. This endowment is only taxable if it made a profit on disposal/maturity - is that the case? Endowments are not good investments and there could just as easily be a loss as a profit. No profit = no income.
Sadly there were profits and gains, although you might argue they were "small" compared to the amount in paid premiums and the final value was less than had been illustrated but ultimately I made a gain.
Originally Posted by JAJ
IF there was a profit, then it was taxable, however you need to understand that you're not under the same obligation to amend your tax return as you were to file it in the first place. In other words, if you believed in good faith that your tax return was correct when you signed it, you are not obliged to amend simply because you discovered a mistake.
I did not know that, thank you I will mention that to the attorney.
Originally Posted by JAJ
Also, when did this endowment disposal take place? If more than 3 years ago, it's ordinarily outside the statute of limitations. There are circumstances where the statute of limitations goes to 6 years, but this is quite unusual.
Probably already given too much info that makes me "identifiable" but thanks for the info.

Originally Posted by JAJ
Are you really sure you have to do anything?
No I'm not, but as you pointed out, they're relying on the "scaremongering". I'd really like to get back to some restful nights rather than the sleepless ones I've been having since this hit the fan.

Thanks again JAJ. You're time and effort in this forum is greatly appreciated.
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Old Jul 19th 2014, 3:25 pm
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Default Re: Do UK workplace group personal pensions need to be reported on FBAR?

Originally Posted by kodokan
Your Tax Treaty wording approach makes complete sense to a layman, familiar with the UK pension environment. Of course they're retirement plans, just like 401(s); stricter, in fact, until the recent legislation change about removing the need to annuitise them.
Very much appreciate your input kodokan. Many thanks.
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