Destitute Americans Living in Tents
Sep 28th 2011, 4:45 pm
#16
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 361
Re: Destitute Americans Living in Tents
My favorite line:
“My mother is still alive, she's 93. She thinks I'm still living in New York. If she found out about this, she would just die.”
Sorry, then why are you agreeing to be the subject of a newspaper article?
Last edited by BILDER; Sep 28th 2011 at 4:51 pm.
Sep 28th 2011, 6:00 pm
#17
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Re: Destitute Americans Living in Tents
I have seen similar comments on TV...
5 minutes of fame can do strange things. They are going to do an article on us in the local rag on Friday, does produce a strange sensation.
Sep 28th 2011, 10:32 pm
#18
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 6,848
Re: Destitute Americans Living in Tents
Ooooh - what did you do to get in the 'local rag'? If they have the article posted online, can you post a link so we can all see it?
Sep 29th 2011, 8:03 pm
#20
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12,865
Re: Destitute Americans Living in Tents
Yeh, criticizing people who are in this plight because they could have saved when they had a job seems a little harsh. I have friends who are long term unemployed, and they're responsible individuals who have saved, but are now in a horrible position with their unemployment benefits running out in a few weeks. They are basically spending their savings (retirement and otherwise) to keep their heads above water. And being in their 50's with no health insurance, they are one significant health event from being wiped out financially. And then what? Both have applied for literally hundreds of jobs and gotten a handful of interviews and zero job offers out of it.
Sep 29th 2011, 8:08 pm
#21
Septicity
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 23,762
Re: Destitute Americans Living in Tents
Sep 29th 2011, 8:17 pm
#22
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jun 2008
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 10,678
Re: Destitute Americans Living in Tents
Yeh, criticizing people who are in this plight because they could have saved when they had a job seems a little harsh. I have friends who are long term unemployed, and they're responsible individuals who have saved, but are now in a horrible position with their unemployment benefits running out in a few weeks. They are basically spending their savings (retirement and otherwise) to keep their heads above water. And being in their 50's with no health insurance, they are one significant health event from being wiped out financially. And then what? Both have applied for literally hundreds of jobs and gotten a handful of interviews and zero job offers out of it.
What is wrong with that picture is that they spent for the moment and when things got tough, they spent for the moment. There is nothing wrong with spending for the moment but I wouldn't like to support those people after they did that with a reasonable middle class lifestyle. If we do support them with a reasonable middle class lifestyle, we are reinforcing bad habits and this would indicate to the public that it is ok to be irresponsible since you will be taken care of. There is a fine line between being compassionate and being stupid.
Last edited by Michael; Sep 29th 2011 at 8:29 pm.
Sep 29th 2011, 9:55 pm
#23
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Re: Destitute Americans Living in Tents
It certainly makes sense in UK for example, no point just managing, better off spending it and getting the benefits.
Oct 1st 2011, 11:54 pm
#24
Banned
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 50
Re: Destitute Americans Living in Tents
I'm seriously considering moving back to the UK because the US is starting to feel scary. It's not fantastic back in the UK, but there's a certain level of services (even with the cuts) that makes it a far more civilized country. If you loose your job in the US it can get nasty fast
In order to live a full and rich life you have to live a little dangerously.
Oct 2nd 2011, 12:24 am
#25
Forum Regular
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: Washington State
Posts: 248
Re: Destitute Americans Living in Tents
Are you taking the Michael? This is just what we need, a return to good old Victorian idea of "deserving poor". Images of kids up chimneys or down mines and the workhouse come to mind.
A person who has earned 100K has paid a lot more into the crappy system than someone earning far less, so may be said to "deserve" something back.
More pertinent is who the hell decides who "deserves".
A person who has earned 100K has paid a lot more into the crappy system than someone earning far less, so may be said to "deserve" something back.
More pertinent is who the hell decides who "deserves".
Oct 2nd 2011, 12:43 am
#26
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jun 2008
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 10,678
Re: Destitute Americans Living in Tents
Are you taking the Michael? This is just what we need, a return to good old Victorian idea of "deserving poor". Images of kids up chimneys or down mines and the workhouse come to mind.
A person who has earned 100K has paid a lot more into the crappy system than someone earning far less, so may be said to "deserve" something back.
More pertinent is who the hell decides who "deserves".
A person who has earned 100K has paid a lot more into the crappy system than someone earning far less, so may be said to "deserve" something back.
More pertinent is who the hell decides who "deserves".
The far left seems to think it is ok for everyone to enjoy the same standard of living whether they made major mistakes, don't work, or are just lazy costing everyone a high taxes and the far right think that if you don't have a job, it is your fault and want to cut off benefits to everyone.
There is a moderate position to this discussion where we can hopefully keep taxes reasonable and still support people that need our help. It is no different than my position on universal health care where I don't know what should be done if the mandate to purchase health insurance is over turned. Should we just say that "it is fine that you didn't purchase health insurance but got sick since the taxpayers will foot the bill anyway"?
Similar things are going on in the UK where the government may soon be enforcing the law that prohibits providing anything other than emergency health care for expatriates. People in the UK no longer want to pay for health coverage for expatriates that aren't paying into the system at the expense of benefits to others that deserve it. Personally I agree with that and don't think it is fair to the UK taxpayers to pay for someone who lived out of the UK for many years, didn't pay UK taxes, and only returned to receive health care.
And countries such as Spain that has over 20% unemployment rate and has had draconian cuts to services will likely have to look at all the money the government is spending on health care for the expatriates that pay little or no taxes into the system.
Last edited by Michael; Oct 2nd 2011 at 1:11 am.
Oct 2nd 2011, 1:07 am
#27
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 41,518
Re: Destitute Americans Living in Tents
Are you taking the Michael? This is just what we need, a return to good old Victorian idea of "deserving poor". Images of kids up chimneys or down mines and the workhouse come to mind.
A person who has earned 100K has paid a lot more into the crappy system than someone earning far less, so may be said to "deserve" something back.
More pertinent is who the hell decides who "deserves".
A person who has earned 100K has paid a lot more into the crappy system than someone earning far less, so may be said to "deserve" something back.
More pertinent is who the hell decides who "deserves".
Yes, he's taking the Michael.
Oct 2nd 2011, 6:17 am
#28
Democracy advocate
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 12,460
Re: Destitute Americans Living in Tents
You're turning a very complex issue into a very simplistic solution much like the conservatives try to do by just cutting off government benefits to everyone.
The far left seems to think it is ok for everyone to enjoy the same standard of living whether they made major mistakes, don't work, or are just lazy costing everyone a high taxes and the far right think that if you don't have a job, it is your fault and want to cut off benefits to everyone.
There is a moderate position to this discussion where we can hopefully keep taxes reasonable and still support people that need our help. It is no different than my position on universal health care where I don't know what should be done if the mandate to purchase health insurance is over turned. Should we just say that "it is fine that you didn't purchase health insurance but got sick since the taxpayers will foot the bill anyway"?
Similar things are going on in the UK where the government may soon be enforcing the law that prohibits providing anything other than emergency health care for expatriates. People in the UK no longer want to pay for health coverage for expatriates that aren't paying into the system at the expense of benefits to others that deserve it. Personally I agree with that and don't think it is fair to the UK taxpayers to pay for someone who lived out of the UK for many years, didn't pay UK taxes, and only returned to receive health care.
And countries such as Spain that has over 20% unemployment rate and has had draconian cuts to services will likely have to look at all the money the government is spending on health care for the expatriates that pay little or no taxes into the system.
The far left seems to think it is ok for everyone to enjoy the same standard of living whether they made major mistakes, don't work, or are just lazy costing everyone a high taxes and the far right think that if you don't have a job, it is your fault and want to cut off benefits to everyone.
There is a moderate position to this discussion where we can hopefully keep taxes reasonable and still support people that need our help. It is no different than my position on universal health care where I don't know what should be done if the mandate to purchase health insurance is over turned. Should we just say that "it is fine that you didn't purchase health insurance but got sick since the taxpayers will foot the bill anyway"?
Similar things are going on in the UK where the government may soon be enforcing the law that prohibits providing anything other than emergency health care for expatriates. People in the UK no longer want to pay for health coverage for expatriates that aren't paying into the system at the expense of benefits to others that deserve it. Personally I agree with that and don't think it is fair to the UK taxpayers to pay for someone who lived out of the UK for many years, didn't pay UK taxes, and only returned to receive health care.
And countries such as Spain that has over 20% unemployment rate and has had draconian cuts to services will likely have to look at all the money the government is spending on health care for the expatriates that pay little or no taxes into the system.
Oct 2nd 2011, 7:32 am
#29
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jun 2008
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 10,678
Re: Destitute Americans Living in Tents
In the US, that would probably be considered the extreme far left but in much of Europe that may be considered left of center. In countries such as Denmark, that may even be considered center. Not that I have anything against Denmark since the system seems to currently work pretty well for a very small country but it would unlikely work very well for a country that is the size of the US.
I will admit that the number of politicians on the far left has greatly diminished in the US since the 1960s and 1970s but there are still a few around such as Bernie Sanders and Dennis Kucinich. Although I respect both, I believe their ideology is too idealistic and unworkable in the US.
Oct 2nd 2011, 4:10 pm
#30
Forum Regular
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: Washington State
Posts: 248
Re: Destitute Americans Living in Tents
That depends on your definition of far left. To me the far left means that you are entitled to almost everything including a reasonable standard of living whether you work for it or not, similar pay for different skills and education levels, free college education, free medical, low cost transportation, low food prices, and inexpensive housing.
In the US, that would probably be considered the extreme far left but in much of Europe that may be considered left of center. In countries such as Denmark, that may even be considered center. Not that I have anything against Denmark since the system seems to currently work pretty well for a very small country but it would unlikely work very well for a country that is the size of the US.
I will admit that the number of politicians on the far left has greatly diminished in the US since the 1960s and 1970s but there are still a few around such as Bernie Sanders and Dennis Kucinich. Although I respect both, I believe their ideology is too idealistic and unworkable in the US.
In the US, that would probably be considered the extreme far left but in much of Europe that may be considered left of center. In countries such as Denmark, that may even be considered center. Not that I have anything against Denmark since the system seems to currently work pretty well for a very small country but it would unlikely work very well for a country that is the size of the US.
I will admit that the number of politicians on the far left has greatly diminished in the US since the 1960s and 1970s but there are still a few around such as Bernie Sanders and Dennis Kucinich. Although I respect both, I believe their ideology is too idealistic and unworkable in the US.
I think you make some very reasonable points. And I agree the issue is very complex. Obviously there is a finite amount of money around to provide for the needs of an increasingly poor population. However there is an argument that free college education benefits society as a whole, as does free health care, regardless of the size of a country. From my simplistic point of view while there is money about to fight wars, bail out bankers and reward the corrupt, there is money to provide for those in need. I see nothing wrong with society trying to level an increasingly sloping playing field.
We could start a discussion on what is poverty?