GeoffM

Back in May I bought a plane ticket with Philippine Airlines (PAL) using my UK debit card - the US ones had caps on because they were new, and for some reason I couldn't use a credit card, so this debit card was the only option left. Anyway, I paid 950 quid for a ticket that PAL never actually issued. Despite taking up the issue with PAL they denied they ever received the money. So I took it to Lloyds in the UK who said they can pursue on my behalf. They refunded the money but now, nearly 2 months later, they've sent a letter saying that "my claim was unsuccessful" and that they would debit the 950 from my account again.

So I have a payment taken by a Philippine company, from a UK debit card, while I'm sitting in the US. Any ideas what to do next? I don't particularly wish to close the personal account, though I do have a joint account.

Guindalf

Do you have proof of any of this? The bank should be able to tell who was paid and when, so if the money went to PAL and they know that no ticket was issued, it's down to them.

GeoffM

Proof of what exactly? The bank statement shows PAL being paid with transaction IDs etc but PAL deny receiving the money, or don't want to refund the money. No ticket was ever issued: they agreed my booking request was in the system but auto-cancelled after 24 hours due to non-payment.

Peachbythebeach

Does the debit card have a Visa or Mastercard logo? Can you pursue it with them for goods not received?

yellowroom

Ask Lloyds why they said your claim was unsuccessful and ask for a copy of whatever evidence they have of that. Then back to PAL with that evidence.

tonrob

Sounds like a right pickle. Hope you get it sorted!

GeoffM

It is a Visa debit card and now you mention "goods not received" it appears the bank should have attempted a chargeback. I'm waiting for the content of the letter from Lloyds (my mum texted me).

I'm wondering whether to drain the account and cancel the overdraft. Knowing my luck they'll debit it anyway and start charging unauthorised overdraft charges. Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

tonrob

If you didn't want to keep the account then you could tell them to shove it up their arse. Do you intend to return to the UK?

GeoffM

Hah, well the advice here is to always leave a UK account open! As I say, I have the joint account (also with Lloyds) but I also have a personal account with Halifax which has been dormant for years anyway, and they don't know my new address. Question is when do they plan to debit the account - no mention in the letter, extracts of which I now have:

As PAL never supplied me with a ticket, I have no proof of not having received anything...

yellowroom

I repeat, ask lloyds to provide you with a copy of the documentation they mention and use that to go back to PAL and ask for your ticket or a refund as appropriate. It's PAL who you have the dispute with as they don't supply the service.

Also, you never said if you have legal cover as part of insurance here. If so, consult legal counsel PDQ.

GeoffM

Not entirely true: supposedly Visa, via the bank, are meant to resolve issues such as this on behalf of the cardholder. But it would appear from numerous similar stories and news reports on the web that banks are not exactly playing ball these days.

Getting doco from Lloyds and then getting PAL to issue a refund will take time, if PAL even bother replying, and in the meantime Lloyds want to take money from my account. When the fraud department opens on Monday then yes I will request evidence - frankly I'd like to see what PAL have provided, as they weren't able to provide me with a ticket number which essentially is what the goods would have boiled down to. It's almost as if Lloyds phoned up PAL and said "Hey, did you issue a ticket to GM?" and PAL replied "Yes, course we did", and Lloyds just took that word as proof. I know damn well that there was no reservation for me on that plane (which I ended up travelling on with an agent instead) because I asked at check-in in both Manila and LA, and at the gate.

I had no travel insurance, which only occurred to me now that you mention it. Previously the joint Lloyds one included annual insurance so we never worried about it, but I'm not sure it was valid sitting in the US.

yellowroom

What about renter's insurance? Does that cover legal services?

GeoffM

I've never heard of home insurance providing that sort of cover - though with a UK debit card and a Philippines transaction, would that be included I wonder. I'll check my policy though.

yellowroom

I'm just asking the question - my contents insurance back in the UK covered "legal services" for any kind of problem, and saved me a couple of thousand in lawyers fees when I had a boundary issue with a neighbour. No idea if you can get the same here.

Lion in Winter

OK, I have no legal training, knowledge or advice to offer, but PAL/your bank's arguments simply don't make sense. Here's how I see it.

Transaction IDs show that money changed hands (from bank to PAL)

Bank agrees that money changed hands by the simple act of temporarily refunding it to you (you can't refund something that was never paid) and then by proposing to take the money out again now (they don't want to be out of pocket).

The above points mean that money left the bank, the bank agrees that it left the bank, and according to both you and the bank's IDs that money went to PAL.

PAL does not claim that it ticketed you and that you did not use the ticket. It claims that it cancelled your booking because it did not receive any money.

So there are only three possibilities: one, your bank sent the money to PAL and has that documentation (even if PAL does not have the "copy" from its end), or, two, your bank sent the money to the wrong place, or, three, the bank documented that it sent money but never actually did (ie they took it out of your account but never forwarded it), in which case it owes it to you. In the case of "one", PAL is liable. In the case of "two" or "three" your bank is liable.


In all three cases, your bank has to provide to you, its account holder, clear documentation of where it sent your money.