Critical Thinking and Debate in the US
#32
Re: Critical Thinking and Debate in the US
I've worked (with Americans) in factories, on building sites and in offices for over 20yrs now.
My own conclusion is that they don't like change and are very suspicious of anything foreign to their way of thinking.
What's more, they tend to be very compliant with any authority which uses patriotism. Odd when you consider the country's origin..........
My own conclusion is that they don't like change and are very suspicious of anything foreign to their way of thinking.
What's more, they tend to be very compliant with any authority which uses patriotism. Odd when you consider the country's origin..........
You only have to look at the road system, Americans are reactive rather than proactive drivers.
Michael Moore made a movie about it as I recall.
Certainly I don't find it in Canada as much and obviously the British and French were the largest immigrant groups here.
#33
Re: Critical Thinking and Debate in the US
That means a large chunk of the US is made up of English, Scots, Welsh and Irish - none of whom are known for their deference to authority.
There is a large deceleration of German ethnicity in the upper Midwest and there is a deference to authority in German culture which arose out of the Prussian virtues of Frederick William's court - however these did not become established in the whole of Germany until after the founding of the German Empire in 1871. A large number of German immigrants arrived before then - including the 48-ers who had participated in or supported the rebellions of 1848. It's possible that later immigrants brought a culture of Prussian values with them but German-Americans have been noted for their assimilation.
I think if you look back at what the average Brit was thinking in the early 20th century you'll see plenty of blind nationalism, deference to authority and Victorian masculinity. The reason that declined in our culture is the impact of the 1st world war which brought in a mood of disillusionment and cynicism. I think that explains why the two countries have different attitudes to patriotism.
#34
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Re: Critical Thinking and Debate in the US
My sister said to me that she thinks it is because Germans were the largest white European immigrant group and so Americans have this deference towards authority that Germans had. I think she has a point because I don't find it as much among the latino Americans I meet.
You only have to look at the road system, Americans are reactive rather than proactive drivers.
Michael Moore made a movie about it as I recall.
Certainly I don't find it in Canada as much and obviously the British and French were the largest immigrant groups here.
You only have to look at the road system, Americans are reactive rather than proactive drivers.
Michael Moore made a movie about it as I recall.
Certainly I don't find it in Canada as much and obviously the British and French were the largest immigrant groups here.
Given the ethnic mix of Silicon Valley, I am constantly surprised that those that tell me they have qualifications far in advance of mine are far more likely to be deferential to their manager, authority in general and take a very short-term view of the world.
Being blunt, Latinos don't figure. But interestingly, the MAJORITY of senior leaders that we have are from the areas of the heavily German influenced areas of the country, so maybe you are onto something....
More and more I'm putting this down to the toxic situation with health-care, house prices and education. Although salaries in the Valley are good, even when you're earning $150k+, paying $25k/child for education, $5-10k per family for health "care," and an average of $2800/month for rent is crippling.
I find that my co-workers would rather say nothing than say something that could undermine that already precarious financial position.
#35
Re: Critical Thinking and Debate in the US
I would say it's three things:
1) I'm assuming you are still an outsider at this stage and - while they are fine with complaining to their colleagues about the work situation - they might be reluctant to share their thoughts with you
2) Bigorganizationitus - there comes a point where a company gets large, accumulates a lot of staff and managers and then sinks into a terminal decline having lost momentum and strategic flexibility - I keep seeing this over and over again in the US and UK and it is one of the things that makes me nervous about our company's growth. You mentioned colleagues that were fine with opening up about the company but these seem to be in the smaller off-shoots not the main operation.
3) You mentioned that the company says they operated a 'flat management structure' but in practice doesn't. If that's the case then the company doesn't have a culture of soliciting employees opinions which explains why the employees are suspicious.
#36
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Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,425
Re: Critical Thinking and Debate in the US
Lots of generalizations here that I'm not sure are warrented. This varies widely by industry and company. I've personally seen huge variations even within the same company. I currently work for a large financial services company. I've been here for ~12 years. Certain areas I've been in involve constant status meeting, top-down micromanagement, kowtowing to the big man (or woman), fear of rocking the boat and love of conformity. When I was more junior, I had people sit behind me while I assembled a financial model, critiquing every step. This is nerve-wracking and pointless.
Other areas here (like my current area) have an entrepreneurial, see your boss once every two weeks, you figure it out, do the analysis and propose a solution, everyone contributes culture. It generally comes down to the management style of the boss and the type of job function. Your seniority plays a huge role as well.
Here in banking, highly process-driven areas like corporate finance, risk, analytics and FP&A are usually pretty top down. This makes some sense given the nature of the work. Marketing, operations and technology are generally more flat and open.
Other areas here (like my current area) have an entrepreneurial, see your boss once every two weeks, you figure it out, do the analysis and propose a solution, everyone contributes culture. It generally comes down to the management style of the boss and the type of job function. Your seniority plays a huge role as well.
Here in banking, highly process-driven areas like corporate finance, risk, analytics and FP&A are usually pretty top down. This makes some sense given the nature of the work. Marketing, operations and technology are generally more flat and open.
Last edited by Hiro11; Apr 25th 2013 at 8:17 pm.
#37
Re: Critical Thinking and Debate in the US
Well everything like this is a generalization, but the fact so many of us have noticed it means it is somewhat prevalent.
Another point made to me various times by various people is that many Americans actually truly believe the stereotype that America is the best country in the world, so by definition they think what they are doing must be the best way to do it.
I always think Dick Cheney is an example of this mindset because of the war in Iraq: we're America, we're better than you, ergo we know better than you and we must be right.
But this is also the mindset that leads to various terrorist groups hating America, they sit and watch American TV and listen to all this "America is the best" claptrap too but to them it is offensive because their culture is so different.
But anyway if you think you are the best, what motivation is there to change?
For example I was watching CNN yesterday and they were explaining how this terrorist in Boston would get a lawyer free of charge, an example of what makes America great, but they probably won't get him out of the death penalty.
So to an American that statement makes perfect sense, but as a foreigner watching it, I think, well most countries give free representation to the defendant and in most other countries there is no death penalty, so it wouldn't even be an issue...
Americans just seem to laugh off things like international comparisons of education that show the US is lowly ranked, or infant mortality, etc. It's like they don't quite believe it. Or if they do believe it, they justify it to themselves by saying, well that's only in Mississippi or some other place where they don't live.
Another point made to me various times by various people is that many Americans actually truly believe the stereotype that America is the best country in the world, so by definition they think what they are doing must be the best way to do it.
I always think Dick Cheney is an example of this mindset because of the war in Iraq: we're America, we're better than you, ergo we know better than you and we must be right.
But this is also the mindset that leads to various terrorist groups hating America, they sit and watch American TV and listen to all this "America is the best" claptrap too but to them it is offensive because their culture is so different.
But anyway if you think you are the best, what motivation is there to change?
For example I was watching CNN yesterday and they were explaining how this terrorist in Boston would get a lawyer free of charge, an example of what makes America great, but they probably won't get him out of the death penalty.
So to an American that statement makes perfect sense, but as a foreigner watching it, I think, well most countries give free representation to the defendant and in most other countries there is no death penalty, so it wouldn't even be an issue...
Americans just seem to laugh off things like international comparisons of education that show the US is lowly ranked, or infant mortality, etc. It's like they don't quite believe it. Or if they do believe it, they justify it to themselves by saying, well that's only in Mississippi or some other place where they don't live.
#38
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 23
Re: Critical Thinking and Debate in the US
Wow, so much to respond to!
1. Steve: "Well everything like this is a generalization, but the fact so many of us have noticed it means it is somewhat prevalent."
- or, coming from other countries, you just have other ways of viewing both social and business activities, and just ASSUME your processes are better. (You were somewhat right with the first part, however - it is a GROSS generalization.)
2. Steve: "Another point made to me various times by various people is that many Americans actually truly believe the stereotype that America is the best country in the world, so by definition they think what they are doing must be the best way to do it."
- And of course, the British have never, ever believed the stereotype that the UK what the greatest nation on earth, and that the only way to do things is the "Propah British" way.
3. Steve: "I always think Dick Cheney is an example of this mindset because of the war in Iraq: we're America, we're better than you, ergo we know better than you and we must be right."
- You just recently planted the British version of Dick Cheney - her name was Maggie Thatcher. (In fact, your whole little rant is a shining example of the Brit / Canadian attitude of "We're so much better than everyone else.")
4. Steve: "But this is also the mindset that leads to various terrorist groups hating America, they sit and watch American TV and listen to all this "America is the best" claptrap too but to them it is offensive because their culture is so different."
- Steve,WHAT !! Are you even reading the illogical "claptrap" you are posting? Why on earth should national pride be a cause for nations to hate other nations? (Are you trying to justify the Irish bombings in England? YOUR post could be said to apply in regard to that relationship also.)
5. Steve: "But anyway if you think you are the best, what motivation is there to change?"
- I have often heard Canadians claim that they lived in "The best country in the world" - is this your condemnation of Canada?
6. Steve: "For example I was watching CNN yesterday and they were explaining how this terrorist in Boston would get a lawyer free of charge, an example of what makes America great, but they probably won't get him out of the death penalty. So to an American that statement makes perfect sense, but as a foreigner watching it, I think, well most countries give free representation to the defendant and in most other countries there is no death penalty, so it wouldn't even be an issue..."
- So, you feel that the death penalty is wrong. I think it is wrong for the U.S. to have to warehouse a premeditated murderer for the next 60+ years, at our tax expense. If it is found that he intentionally sought to kill people, then he should forfeit HIS life.
7. Steve :Americans just seem to laugh off things like international comparisons of education that show the US is lowly ranked, or infant mortality, etc. It's like they don't quite believe it. Or if they do believe it, they justify it to themselves by saying, well that's only in Mississippi or some other place where they don't live."
- And yet, tens of tousands, even hundreds of thousands, of foreigners every year still flock to attend American colleges and universities. Not something you care to mention, is it?
__________________
Steve: "Canada - America without the bullshit."
My take - "Canada - America except with a raging inferiority complex."
1. Steve: "Well everything like this is a generalization, but the fact so many of us have noticed it means it is somewhat prevalent."
- or, coming from other countries, you just have other ways of viewing both social and business activities, and just ASSUME your processes are better. (You were somewhat right with the first part, however - it is a GROSS generalization.)
2. Steve: "Another point made to me various times by various people is that many Americans actually truly believe the stereotype that America is the best country in the world, so by definition they think what they are doing must be the best way to do it."
- And of course, the British have never, ever believed the stereotype that the UK what the greatest nation on earth, and that the only way to do things is the "Propah British" way.
3. Steve: "I always think Dick Cheney is an example of this mindset because of the war in Iraq: we're America, we're better than you, ergo we know better than you and we must be right."
- You just recently planted the British version of Dick Cheney - her name was Maggie Thatcher. (In fact, your whole little rant is a shining example of the Brit / Canadian attitude of "We're so much better than everyone else.")
4. Steve: "But this is also the mindset that leads to various terrorist groups hating America, they sit and watch American TV and listen to all this "America is the best" claptrap too but to them it is offensive because their culture is so different."
- Steve,WHAT !! Are you even reading the illogical "claptrap" you are posting? Why on earth should national pride be a cause for nations to hate other nations? (Are you trying to justify the Irish bombings in England? YOUR post could be said to apply in regard to that relationship also.)
5. Steve: "But anyway if you think you are the best, what motivation is there to change?"
- I have often heard Canadians claim that they lived in "The best country in the world" - is this your condemnation of Canada?
6. Steve: "For example I was watching CNN yesterday and they were explaining how this terrorist in Boston would get a lawyer free of charge, an example of what makes America great, but they probably won't get him out of the death penalty. So to an American that statement makes perfect sense, but as a foreigner watching it, I think, well most countries give free representation to the defendant and in most other countries there is no death penalty, so it wouldn't even be an issue..."
- So, you feel that the death penalty is wrong. I think it is wrong for the U.S. to have to warehouse a premeditated murderer for the next 60+ years, at our tax expense. If it is found that he intentionally sought to kill people, then he should forfeit HIS life.
7. Steve :Americans just seem to laugh off things like international comparisons of education that show the US is lowly ranked, or infant mortality, etc. It's like they don't quite believe it. Or if they do believe it, they justify it to themselves by saying, well that's only in Mississippi or some other place where they don't live."
- And yet, tens of tousands, even hundreds of thousands, of foreigners every year still flock to attend American colleges and universities. Not something you care to mention, is it?
__________________
Steve: "Canada - America without the bullshit."
My take - "Canada - America except with a raging inferiority complex."
#39
Re: Critical Thinking and Debate in the US
Americans just seem to laugh off things like international comparisons of education that show the US is lowly ranked, or infant mortality, etc. It's like they don't quite believe it. Or if they do believe it, they justify it to themselves by saying, well that's only in Mississippi or some other place where they don't live.
In fact there are relatively few reputable measures for comparing school systems worldwide and the biggest one is the OECD PISA survey, which is very limited in terms of sample size and will show up varied data depending on where the children were in the country which was sampled etc.. In any event the OECD figures show the States in at 14th or 17th in the rankings depending on what measures you are comparing. This is actually above the OECD average and although it's below Canada, Iceland, Finland, Korea etc, it's above Germany, Ireland, France and the UK. Furthermore the scores awarded are actually pretty close so there isn't a vast difference between the top ranked countries. In fact the countries tend to move up and down the league tables every time a new survey is released.
When it comes to infant mortality, the US ranks low among developed nations - however the measure used for this is totally inconsistent between countries which makes comparisons tricky. The US follows the stricter measure given by the United Nations Statistics Division and thereby does poorer in the rankings than it otherwise would.
#40
Re: Critical Thinking and Debate in the US
- And of course, the British have never, ever believed the stereotype that the UK what the greatest nation on earth, and that the only way to do things is the "Propah British" way.
- You just recently planted the British version of Dick Cheney - her name was Maggie Thatcher. (In fact, your whole little rant is a shining example of the Brit / Canadian attitude of "We're so much better than everyone else.")
- Steve,WHAT !! Are you even reading the illogical "claptrap" you are posting? Why on earth should national pride be a cause for nations to hate other nations? (Are you trying to justify the Irish bombings in England? YOUR post could be said to apply in regard to that relationship also.)
- I have often heard Canadians claim that they lived in "The best country in the world" - is this your condemnation of Canada?
- So, you feel that the death penalty is wrong. I think it is wrong for the U.S. to have to warehouse a premeditated murderer for the next 60+ years, at our tax expense. If it is found that he intentionally sought to kill people, then he should forfeit HIS life.
- And yet, tens of tousands, even hundreds of thousands, of foreigners every year still flock to attend American colleges and universities. Not something you care to mention, is it?
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...e-degrees?lite
Not a particularly good indication of the superiority of American higher education, is it?
#41
Re: Critical Thinking and Debate in the US
Certainly the BBC does it, my cousin calls it the "British Bullshit Corporation" because they can be seriously condescending sometimes.
What the US needs is more foreign news coverage.
#42
Re: Critical Thinking and Debate in the US
Rick Mercer talking to Americans
Yes okay I know you could pull the same trick in plenty of other countries and some of the comments were taken out of context but still, makes the point.
Yes okay I know you could pull the same trick in plenty of other countries and some of the comments were taken out of context but still, makes the point.
#44
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Joined: Feb 2009
Location: Fox Lake, IL (from Carrickfergus NI)
Posts: 49,598
Re: Critical Thinking and Debate in the US
Critical thinking does take place here, of course it does - by virtue of the law of averages but when you look at the number of christians running around, it's hard to believe critical thinking exists here at all.
Oh, before you get all up in arms and offended - that isn't a generalisation. Blind faith in fairy tales is a textbook example of a lack of critical thinking. Deal with it.
Oh, before you get all up in arms and offended - that isn't a generalisation. Blind faith in fairy tales is a textbook example of a lack of critical thinking. Deal with it.