California for work
Mar 21st 2012, 10:48 pm
#106
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Re: California for work
Elop:
Well, I moved to Silicon Valley about 15 months ago on an L1A. My salary is $145k/year plus some bonus and I have a "market-leading" health-care plan.
Where can I start. I'll give you my personal perspective:
I live in Santa Clara, and both socially and economically, I'm finding it tough. I cannot afford to buy here as a) I don't have any credit history (the US is OBSESSED with credit history) b) I don't have the 20% deposit that would be needed, and c) I'd be looking at houses around $800-900k (1600-1800 sq ft) unless I wanted to commute vast distances. But, I could go to Palo Alto where a 1-bed apartment was on the market last week for $1.5m.......
Oh, and as I have an L1 with a limited period and no credit history, my payments would most likely be huge - that is if I were to be offered a mortgage at all.
So we're renting. 1600 sq ft for $3000/month (house value $750k), no garden, town-house. That's about average. Even with rental income from the UK, we are nowhere near as comfortable as we were in the UK. Your $1m is about right for an good-sized house in a good neighbourhood.
Oh - and house prices are still rising, houses still selling in 3-5 days at those levels.
"Market-leading" healthcare has still left me out-of-pocket for $80 per doctors-office visit up to the first $2000, out of pocket for $3500 for a crown at the dentist. The only advice I can give is don't get sick.
Other expenses - just general off-the-shelf medicines are not just slightly more expensive than the UK - they are in a different universe ! And just about EVERYTHING (including the hayfever medicine that I can buy anywhere else in the world OTC) requires a prescription, and that is $80 to see the GP. It's things like that that add up. Internet is slow and expensive - cable is your best bet, but that is much more expensive than in the UK. If your company doesn't provide a mobile phone, contracts and calls are more expensive than in the UK, coverage patchy even in the heart of IT-land.
Then there is the fact that you have to drive everywhere. We are lucky - we can walk to our son's school, walk to our nearest supermarket, but anything else - forget it. With no major trips by car, last year we covered between us 20,000 miles which is still a huge amount.
Fuel is cheap, but insurance is horrendous. Eating out is dirt-cheap. Post is cheap (but hopeless - 3 days to get a letter across town), electricity, gas, water, garbage collection is cheap. Sports on a par with the UK, except Major League Soccer (which we've discovered and are thoroughly enjoying !) where you can get seats for less than $30.
Tax is nasty - by the time you've added in all the extras, put money aside to top-up the healthcare, retirement (most employers are no where near as generous in matching here as they are in the UK), you are probably going to pay about as much in tax as you would in the UK.
So, even on a very good salary, we're finding it more difficult than on a similar salary in the UK.
But, the most annoying part for me is the toxic work environment. I'm a reasonably senior person, and dealing with the politics here is just awful. Nothing but nothing can ever be publicly painted in anything but rosy terms. Even if the entire project has gone to custard and beyond, you cannot go in to a meeting and say "my g*d, this is f-ed up isn't it ?" and expect people just to say "yep" and then get on and fix it....
There is a lot of management speak, double-talk, managing-up, hidden agendas. Yes it happens in the UK, but usually it is blatant. Here, it is a lot more subtle.
Plus there is what I am only going to describe as a recent influx that have a highly class-driven culture, quite at odds with the Californian laid-back, highly open and democratic culture.
Example; first review meeting I had with my team, and I wanted to make sure that my boss had all the information to make a valid call on what we are doing. One team member told me "Just tell the Big Boss that everything is good." But it wasn' t - some was good, some was bad, and frankly I wanted my boss to deal with the bad because it required managerial input and let us deal with the good. I got nowhere.
Depending on the age of the company that you work for, you may also find that there are a number of older people that remain past their usable life because they need the medical benefits. I know of three senior people that spend as much time at the doctor as they do in the office, but they live in fear that if they retire before Medicare kicks in or if their health insurance won't cover their existing conditions, they'll be left to get more and more sick. This, together with the hire-and-fire culture, breeds a level of insecurity in people such that they just do their job, try not to get noticed, and go home. Being ambitious here is fine, but it is far more personally risky than in Europe. Dissenting voices are rarely heard.
In Silicon Valley, everyone runs late. If you're happy with that, great. I'm not. Meetings canceled at the last moment, people turning up 5, 10, 15 minutes late for conference calls, deadlines just forgotten.
Now the good. The weather is great - all year. Even when it's cold and rainy, it isn't. LA, Vegas, San Diego, Seattle are all very close (Seattle is wonderful - even in the rain). There are some superb beaches very nearby. Napa, Sonoma are great (but SERIOUSLY expensive) places for food and drink.
If you like a truly cosmopolitan atmosphere, the Bay Area is wonderful - walk down any street and you'll hear dozens of languages spoken, be able to eat food from around the world, etc.
And San Francisco. What CAN I say. It is an amazing city with a VERY healthy set of attitudes, a real mix of people and just looks stunning to-boot. And it's less than an hour away by a half-decent rail line and reasonable roads. Other than Washington DC, it is the closest to a European city I've come across in the US. Superb restaurants, great views, wonderful arts, excellent theatres, a great symphony orchestra and hall, galleries, bars, shops. It's got the lot.
The upshot - for a short time, to learn what makes Silicon Valley tick, it is a good experience. We're not planning on staying long-term (although once our son is out in the wide world, San Francisco certainly appeals....) but doing what I do in IT will make my eventual job back in the EU much easier having had the experience of "Corporate" from the inside !
Also, I wish to understand why even people from the UK say that Silicon Valley is expensive. $4.00/gallon vs £1.40/litre petrol for starters. Food is slightly cheaper. House prices are confusing, but generally for what you would pay in the UK, you would have a larger house in the Valley. I've heard people mention that you need around a million dollars to have a decent place in a decent area - hard to believe. I'm seeing hundreds of reasonable properties for $300K to $500K. There are also quite a few for less than $100K - wouldn't necessarily call these places prestigious, but even if you go all the way up north in the UK, you cannot find anything similar for that price.
I've been looking on a range of different sites, realtor.com, craigslist, for Palo Alto and a 20-mile radius. Most of my expenses that I pay in the UK will not exist in the States. Ie. I don't plan on driving 1000 miles per week, and even if I do, it won't cost anywhere near as much as it does here. Obviously I will have a bunch of work benefits that as I contractor I don't have in the UK. These 2 things alone will save me around £200-£300/week ~ $300-$470/week, which I'm sure will make a difference.
I'm not too sure how much deposit/down payment I will have available - it all depends on how much I need. Ie. if I need to sell my house to use to buy a house in the US, then I can, otherwise I can just rent it out. For this I guess I will need to know how accurate the monthly mortgage payments on realtor.com are.
I know that the various taxes that need to be paid are generally lower - is there some tax, or other expense that I am unaware of? If Silicon Valley is supposed to be so expensive, where is this expense, clearly I'm missing something.
I've been looking on a range of different sites, realtor.com, craigslist, for Palo Alto and a 20-mile radius. Most of my expenses that I pay in the UK will not exist in the States. Ie. I don't plan on driving 1000 miles per week, and even if I do, it won't cost anywhere near as much as it does here. Obviously I will have a bunch of work benefits that as I contractor I don't have in the UK. These 2 things alone will save me around £200-£300/week ~ $300-$470/week, which I'm sure will make a difference.
I'm not too sure how much deposit/down payment I will have available - it all depends on how much I need. Ie. if I need to sell my house to use to buy a house in the US, then I can, otherwise I can just rent it out. For this I guess I will need to know how accurate the monthly mortgage payments on realtor.com are.
I know that the various taxes that need to be paid are generally lower - is there some tax, or other expense that I am unaware of? If Silicon Valley is supposed to be so expensive, where is this expense, clearly I'm missing something.
Where can I start. I'll give you my personal perspective:
I live in Santa Clara, and both socially and economically, I'm finding it tough. I cannot afford to buy here as a) I don't have any credit history (the US is OBSESSED with credit history) b) I don't have the 20% deposit that would be needed, and c) I'd be looking at houses around $800-900k (1600-1800 sq ft) unless I wanted to commute vast distances. But, I could go to Palo Alto where a 1-bed apartment was on the market last week for $1.5m.......
Oh, and as I have an L1 with a limited period and no credit history, my payments would most likely be huge - that is if I were to be offered a mortgage at all.
So we're renting. 1600 sq ft for $3000/month (house value $750k), no garden, town-house. That's about average. Even with rental income from the UK, we are nowhere near as comfortable as we were in the UK. Your $1m is about right for an good-sized house in a good neighbourhood.
Oh - and house prices are still rising, houses still selling in 3-5 days at those levels.
"Market-leading" healthcare has still left me out-of-pocket for $80 per doctors-office visit up to the first $2000, out of pocket for $3500 for a crown at the dentist. The only advice I can give is don't get sick.
Other expenses - just general off-the-shelf medicines are not just slightly more expensive than the UK - they are in a different universe ! And just about EVERYTHING (including the hayfever medicine that I can buy anywhere else in the world OTC) requires a prescription, and that is $80 to see the GP. It's things like that that add up. Internet is slow and expensive - cable is your best bet, but that is much more expensive than in the UK. If your company doesn't provide a mobile phone, contracts and calls are more expensive than in the UK, coverage patchy even in the heart of IT-land.
Then there is the fact that you have to drive everywhere. We are lucky - we can walk to our son's school, walk to our nearest supermarket, but anything else - forget it. With no major trips by car, last year we covered between us 20,000 miles which is still a huge amount.
Fuel is cheap, but insurance is horrendous. Eating out is dirt-cheap. Post is cheap (but hopeless - 3 days to get a letter across town), electricity, gas, water, garbage collection is cheap. Sports on a par with the UK, except Major League Soccer (which we've discovered and are thoroughly enjoying !) where you can get seats for less than $30.
Tax is nasty - by the time you've added in all the extras, put money aside to top-up the healthcare, retirement (most employers are no where near as generous in matching here as they are in the UK), you are probably going to pay about as much in tax as you would in the UK.
So, even on a very good salary, we're finding it more difficult than on a similar salary in the UK.
But, the most annoying part for me is the toxic work environment. I'm a reasonably senior person, and dealing with the politics here is just awful. Nothing but nothing can ever be publicly painted in anything but rosy terms. Even if the entire project has gone to custard and beyond, you cannot go in to a meeting and say "my g*d, this is f-ed up isn't it ?" and expect people just to say "yep" and then get on and fix it....
There is a lot of management speak, double-talk, managing-up, hidden agendas. Yes it happens in the UK, but usually it is blatant. Here, it is a lot more subtle.
Plus there is what I am only going to describe as a recent influx that have a highly class-driven culture, quite at odds with the Californian laid-back, highly open and democratic culture.
Example; first review meeting I had with my team, and I wanted to make sure that my boss had all the information to make a valid call on what we are doing. One team member told me "Just tell the Big Boss that everything is good." But it wasn' t - some was good, some was bad, and frankly I wanted my boss to deal with the bad because it required managerial input and let us deal with the good. I got nowhere.
Depending on the age of the company that you work for, you may also find that there are a number of older people that remain past their usable life because they need the medical benefits. I know of three senior people that spend as much time at the doctor as they do in the office, but they live in fear that if they retire before Medicare kicks in or if their health insurance won't cover their existing conditions, they'll be left to get more and more sick. This, together with the hire-and-fire culture, breeds a level of insecurity in people such that they just do their job, try not to get noticed, and go home. Being ambitious here is fine, but it is far more personally risky than in Europe. Dissenting voices are rarely heard.
In Silicon Valley, everyone runs late. If you're happy with that, great. I'm not. Meetings canceled at the last moment, people turning up 5, 10, 15 minutes late for conference calls, deadlines just forgotten.
Now the good. The weather is great - all year. Even when it's cold and rainy, it isn't. LA, Vegas, San Diego, Seattle are all very close (Seattle is wonderful - even in the rain). There are some superb beaches very nearby. Napa, Sonoma are great (but SERIOUSLY expensive) places for food and drink.
If you like a truly cosmopolitan atmosphere, the Bay Area is wonderful - walk down any street and you'll hear dozens of languages spoken, be able to eat food from around the world, etc.
And San Francisco. What CAN I say. It is an amazing city with a VERY healthy set of attitudes, a real mix of people and just looks stunning to-boot. And it's less than an hour away by a half-decent rail line and reasonable roads. Other than Washington DC, it is the closest to a European city I've come across in the US. Superb restaurants, great views, wonderful arts, excellent theatres, a great symphony orchestra and hall, galleries, bars, shops. It's got the lot.
The upshot - for a short time, to learn what makes Silicon Valley tick, it is a good experience. We're not planning on staying long-term (although once our son is out in the wide world, San Francisco certainly appeals....) but doing what I do in IT will make my eventual job back in the EU much easier having had the experience of "Corporate" from the inside !
Mar 25th 2012, 6:49 am
#107
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Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Nevada b4 California b4 Colorado b4 Valley of plastic and sand, b4 London
Posts: 2,025
Re: California for work
You certainly covered almost everything, I would add that we have Earthquakes here so be prepared for that, in terms of the event as well as insurance.
I think the only cheap parts for property (at The Bay area prices) are places like the East Bay etc.
Plenty of benefits but it does come at at price and the IRS love anyone making more than $100K, you get taxed through the Nose.
Corporate America, be prepared is different from Corporate Europe, I too work in Silicon Valley and you hear one thing being said but the opposite happens. Make no mistake, this is a wonderful place to live and work but you have to work really hard and put in the long hours to become successful, relationships are hard to come by because most people are trying to build their careers or hold on to it.
If you are willing to go through the sacrifice then it is worth. I would put the idea of buying a house in your first year here on hold, since as already mentioned FICO score is so important here and with the great recession Banks are asking for even more nowadays unless you have about $200K or more, laying around. Even property prices where I live were not affected at all, infact some of them have increased in value, thanks to the successfully profitable quarters of Apple, Google etc. The demand to live here is very high every week they are an influx of new residences, which just pushes property prices higher, so you are in competition but if you have the right skills you should be okay.
I think the only cheap parts for property (at The Bay area prices) are places like the East Bay etc.
Plenty of benefits but it does come at at price and the IRS love anyone making more than $100K, you get taxed through the Nose.
Corporate America, be prepared is different from Corporate Europe, I too work in Silicon Valley and you hear one thing being said but the opposite happens. Make no mistake, this is a wonderful place to live and work but you have to work really hard and put in the long hours to become successful, relationships are hard to come by because most people are trying to build their careers or hold on to it.
If you are willing to go through the sacrifice then it is worth. I would put the idea of buying a house in your first year here on hold, since as already mentioned FICO score is so important here and with the great recession Banks are asking for even more nowadays unless you have about $200K or more, laying around. Even property prices where I live were not affected at all, infact some of them have increased in value, thanks to the successfully profitable quarters of Apple, Google etc. The demand to live here is very high every week they are an influx of new residences, which just pushes property prices higher, so you are in competition but if you have the right skills you should be okay.
Mar 25th 2012, 4:52 pm
#108
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Joined: Jan 2011
Location: West Sussex - did 3 years in the US...
Posts: 577
Re: California for work
I think the only cheap parts for property (at The Bay area prices) are places like the East Bay etc
Even property prices where I live were not affected at all, infact some of them have increased in value, thanks to the successfully profitable quarters of Apple, Google etc
relationships are hard to come by because most people are trying to build their careers or hold on to it.
Don't get me wrong - it's a nice area and there is a load of things to do but you do remain very much an individual/couple/family. People in this area are not great at socialising - there are many ethnic groups that tend to only mix with each other, and there is a very "family first" ethic. We've done LOADS (having a child helps), but it is all quite "skin-deep." I'd rate the society as quite insular, superficially very friendly (in a way that makes you think they are more open and accommodating than they are) but actually for all the bluster, quite private people. And yes, it is career first, 24/24.
Having said that, we have made two or three very good friends, but interestingly they are Americans that have spent considerable time living in Europe !
Expect lots of "let's do lunches" but don't expect them to be followed up....
Mar 25th 2012, 7:01 pm
#109
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Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Nevada b4 California b4 Colorado b4 Valley of plastic and sand, b4 London
Posts: 2,025
Re: California for work
The East bay is not that bad, compared to East Palo Alto.
In regards to your last three paragraphs yes, it is funny because every European that I have met here says the same thing and as for some ethnic groups not mixing with others that too is very true to a certain extent. My American friend experiences this quite a lot inwhich we talk about and came to the conclusion that it has to do with lack of traveling around the world, they just rather not learn about things outside their comfort zones.
The Schooling here is certain shocking in regard that you can study for two degrees at the same time. In the UK a three year degree is a three year degree, once you finish that you can start the next one. Here your results from your high school is added to your degree in some Universities here. So instead of spending six years for two Bachelor's degrees and can do it in three years.
In regards to your last three paragraphs yes, it is funny because every European that I have met here says the same thing and as for some ethnic groups not mixing with others that too is very true to a certain extent. My American friend experiences this quite a lot inwhich we talk about and came to the conclusion that it has to do with lack of traveling around the world, they just rather not learn about things outside their comfort zones.
The Schooling here is certain shocking in regard that you can study for two degrees at the same time. In the UK a three year degree is a three year degree, once you finish that you can start the next one. Here your results from your high school is added to your degree in some Universities here. So instead of spending six years for two Bachelor's degrees and can do it in three years.
...and that's for a reason...
Yep - Santa Clara, Campbell, Cupertino, Sunnyvale, Menlo Park, Palo Alto, Los Gatos and all points west of San Jose have seen property prices increase by about 6% in the last year.
Oh and the obsession with education.... EVERYONE thinks that their school is awful (they aren't - the schooling is on a par or better than the UK) and many send their children to extra lessons. Poor s*ds sometimes spend 3, 4, 5 hours a night plus weekends working ! It all comes over as a bit earnest - having fun (what I would refer to as ar*ing around in the true Brit/Irish style - the Irish really do that well ......) doesn't really happen for kids or adults.... (correction - except at the MLS games where there is a very Latino crowd that DO know how to have a good time)
Don't get me wrong - it's a nice area and there is a load of things to do but you do remain very much an individual/couple/family. People in this area are not great at socialising - there are many ethnic groups that tend to only mix with each other, and there is a very "family first" ethic. We've done LOADS (having a child helps), but it is all quite "skin-deep." I'd rate the society as quite insular, superficially very friendly (in a way that makes you think they are more open and accommodating than they are) but actually for all the bluster, quite private people. And yes, it is career first, 24/24.
Having said that, we have made two or three very good friends, but interestingly they are Americans that have spent considerable time living in Europe !
Expect lots of "let's do lunches" but don't expect them to be followed up....
Yep - Santa Clara, Campbell, Cupertino, Sunnyvale, Menlo Park, Palo Alto, Los Gatos and all points west of San Jose have seen property prices increase by about 6% in the last year.
Oh and the obsession with education.... EVERYONE thinks that their school is awful (they aren't - the schooling is on a par or better than the UK) and many send their children to extra lessons. Poor s*ds sometimes spend 3, 4, 5 hours a night plus weekends working ! It all comes over as a bit earnest - having fun (what I would refer to as ar*ing around in the true Brit/Irish style - the Irish really do that well ......) doesn't really happen for kids or adults.... (correction - except at the MLS games where there is a very Latino crowd that DO know how to have a good time)
Don't get me wrong - it's a nice area and there is a load of things to do but you do remain very much an individual/couple/family. People in this area are not great at socialising - there are many ethnic groups that tend to only mix with each other, and there is a very "family first" ethic. We've done LOADS (having a child helps), but it is all quite "skin-deep." I'd rate the society as quite insular, superficially very friendly (in a way that makes you think they are more open and accommodating than they are) but actually for all the bluster, quite private people. And yes, it is career first, 24/24.
Having said that, we have made two or three very good friends, but interestingly they are Americans that have spent considerable time living in Europe !
Expect lots of "let's do lunches" but don't expect them to be followed up....
Mar 26th 2012, 2:12 pm
#110
Forum Regular
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 58
Re: California for work
As I work in technology too I have seen this massive range of salaries. Bear in mind that a 50-60k wage in the UK for a contractor is fairly average. Whereas for a full time salaried role it would be pretty decent.
The US seems to offer jobs at your experience level around the $100k mark but I have also seen them offer 75k-150k which just says to me there is a recruiter casting a wide net or they truly will base it on your experience.
Ive decided to take $15k less than I would expect just to get stateside on my own volition, I can find better work when I am out there if necessary.
The US seems to offer jobs at your experience level around the $100k mark but I have also seen them offer 75k-150k which just says to me there is a recruiter casting a wide net or they truly will base it on your experience.
Ive decided to take $15k less than I would expect just to get stateside on my own volition, I can find better work when I am out there if necessary.
Mar 26th 2012, 3:57 pm
#111
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Location: West Sussex - did 3 years in the US...
Posts: 577
Re: California for work
The East bay is not that bad, compared to East Palo Alto.
came to the conclusion that it has to do with lack of traveling around the world
So, yes, it does have to do with traveling, but I think it also is simply because a lot of the new incomers are first-generation migrants, speak little-to-no English/Spanish and are just so impressed with the place compared to where THEY come from that they just knuckle down and work, work, work.
