Buying a used car ...
#151
Re: Buying a used car ...
Originally Posted by RoadWarriorFromLP
The obvious difference is there is no cost advantage to driving a diesel car in the US. The fuel taxes in Europe provide diesel with an obvious cost benefit, whereas diesel fuel in the US is actually more expensive than is gasoline. And you can expect the reformulation to cleaner diesel fuels will only increase that price difference.
For their displacement, diesels tend to be less powerful, even with turbocharging. Until very recently, diesel cars had been slower, noisier and dirtier, with that unpleasant idle to match and the delay at start-up due to the glow plugs, and not everyone has yet caught on to the fact that the new generation of diesels is much improved. But even so, the fuel is still too expensive to make it worthwhile.
I'd be all in favor of cars being run on biodiesel, but we are neither producing nor distributing this fuel in large quantities. Hopefully, investment will be made to make this possible, but it hasn't happened yet.
For their displacement, diesels tend to be less powerful, even with turbocharging. Until very recently, diesel cars had been slower, noisier and dirtier, with that unpleasant idle to match and the delay at start-up due to the glow plugs, and not everyone has yet caught on to the fact that the new generation of diesels is much improved. But even so, the fuel is still too expensive to make it worthwhile.
I'd be all in favor of cars being run on biodiesel, but we are neither producing nor distributing this fuel in large quantities. Hopefully, investment will be made to make this possible, but it hasn't happened yet.
Modern small diesels are not particlarly noisy, dirty or slow. Manual glow plugs have not been used in small European diesels for several years. They also have better torque, size for size than gasoline engines and it is torque that matters in every day driving.
#152
Re: Buying a used car ...
Originally Posted by TRPardoe
The price of diesel is directly related to the level of taxation, not to the cost of production.
#153
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Re: Buying a used car ...
Originally Posted by Bob
Aye, and there's bug all tax benefit to being a green person in this country...what about LPR...don't see that around here, or it got a different name? That was dirt cheap back in blighty a couple years ago, it still got the tax breaks?
You mean LPG? Yeah its still cheap and vauxhall make factory cars that are dual fuel, rather than having to have an after market conversion!
Diesel is more expensive that petrol now in UK as got rid of a lot of the tax breaks - but it goes much further which makes it worthwhile!!
#154
Bloody Yank
Joined: Oct 2005
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Re: Buying a used car ...
Originally Posted by TRPardoe
The price of diesel is directly related to the level of taxation, not to the cost of production.
Originally Posted by TRPardoe
Modern small diesels are not particlarly noisy, dirty or slow. Manual glow plugs have not been used in small European diesels for several years. They also have better torque, size for size than gasoline engines and it is torque that matters in every day driving.
Plus, performance for diesels is usually more sluggish, although the gap is narrowing. Compare a turbodiesel Jetta with its GLI gas turbo counterpart, and you'll see that the diesel is much slower and less powerful.
#155
Mr. Grumpy
Joined: Jun 2003
Location: Nashville, TN
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Re: Buying a used car ...
Originally Posted by RoadWarriorFromLP
The obvious difference is there is no cost advantage to driving a diesel car in the US. The fuel taxes in Europe provide diesel with an obvious cost benefit, whereas diesel fuel in the US is actually more expensive than is gasoline. And you can expect the reformulation to cleaner diesel fuels will only increase that price difference.
Please explain how driving 1000 miles in a golf TDI will not cost less than driving 1000 miles in a 1.8 golf in the USA
#156
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Re: Buying a used car ...
Originally Posted by RoadWarriorFromLP
Agreed, but not many of those cars are being sold today in the US, and most of us here are going to remember those old, clanky Mercedes and VW's that made a hell of a racket and produced a lot of smoke. Those who have driven in newer European diesels know better, but many people never venture beyond the nose of their own Corollas.
Plus, performance for diesels is usually more sluggish, although the gap is narrowing. Compare a turbodiesel Jetta with its GLI gas turbo counterpart, and you'll see that the diesel is much slower and less powerful.
Plus, performance for diesels is usually more sluggish, although the gap is narrowing. Compare a turbodiesel Jetta with its GLI gas turbo counterpart, and you'll see that the diesel is much slower and less powerful.
There just isnt the market or need over here in the US - all the VWs and Audis here will be as good as Europe but unless gas goes through the roof again its unlikely to be widespread - just like the UK in the early 80s when you had to fill up with the trucks!
There is lag with modern diesels but they arent much slower - and as mentioned the torque is incredible - you never need to change gear some of those in Europe are more powerful that their gas counterpart!
#157
Re: Buying a used car ...
Originally Posted by RoadWarriorFromLP
Plus, performance for diesels is usually more sluggish, although the gap is narrowing. Compare a turbodiesel Jetta with its GLI gas turbo counterpart, and you'll see that the diesel is much slower and less powerful.
You turbo the diesel to improve efficiency and increase power to gas engine standards, not to make it a crotch rocket.
Having said that, I am told that Audi are going to be racing a diesel car at Sebring this year. That will be interesting if it happens.
I seem to remember from the Daily Telegraph that the most powerful Audi road car is a diesel.
#158
Re: Buying a used car ...
Originally Posted by Bob
Aye, and there's bug all tax benefit to being a green person in this country...what about LPR...don't see that around here, or it got a different name? That was dirt cheap back in blighty a couple years ago, it still got the tax breaks?
Anatomy of A Debacle: Arizona's Alt-Fuels Program
#159
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Re: Buying a used car ...
Originally Posted by TRPardoe
Not a fair comparison.
You turbo the diesel to improve efficiency and increase power to gas engine standards, not to make it a crotch rocket.
Having said that, I am told that Audi are going to be racing a diesel car at Sebring this year. That will be interesting if it happens.
I seem to remember from the Daily Telegraph that the most powerful Audi road car is a diesel.
You turbo the diesel to improve efficiency and increase power to gas engine standards, not to make it a crotch rocket.
Having said that, I am told that Audi are going to be racing a diesel car at Sebring this year. That will be interesting if it happens.
I seem to remember from the Daily Telegraph that the most powerful Audi road car is a diesel.
They are running it at Le Mans too!
#161
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Re: Buying a used car ...
Originally Posted by Big D
They are running it at Le Mans too!
Diesel cars are becoming the revolution
#162
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Re: Buying a used car ...
Originally Posted by Crispyuk88
beat me to it.
Only by an hour
#163
Bloody Yank
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Re: Buying a used car ...
Originally Posted by BritGuyTN
Please explain how driving 1000 miles in a golf TDI will not cost less than driving 1000 miles in a 1.8 golf in the USA
Here's an anecdote -- near my home, there is a name-brand station selling diesel consistently at about a $0.30 per gallon premium above the price of regular unleaded. And mind you, that's one of the few stations that actually bothers to sell it at all, so driving in past in search of another wouldn't be much of an option around here. I'd guess that for every ten service station, you'd find perhaps one or two among them selling diesel.
In any case, the ultimate problem is the performance gap. A new Jetta (Bora) TDI is a 1.9 liter turbo that produces 100 hp, and a claimed 0-60 time of 11.7 seconds. In contrast, a turbo gas engine of roughly the same displacement (2.0 liter) in the same car produces 200 hp and 0-60 times of under 7 seconds. Yes, the diesel motor will deliver better fuel economy, but a modern car that needs 12 seconds to hit 60 is not going to be a big hit in America.
#164
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Re: Buying a used car ...
Originally Posted by RoadWarriorFromLP
The fuel economy for the diesel is superior, but the higher price of the fuel that you'd frequently have to pay eliminates much of that benefit for many of us. And diesel fuel is simply more difficult to find, you would have to drive past a lot of service stations to find one with the diesel that you'd require, particularly when in urban areas.
Here's an anecdote -- near my home, there is a name-brand station selling diesel consistently at about a $0.30 per gallon premium above the price of regular unleaded. And mind you, that's one of the few stations that actually bothers to sell it at all, so driving in past in search of another wouldn't be much of an option around here. I'd guess that for every ten service station, you'd find perhaps one or two among them selling diesel.
In any case, the ultimate problem is the performance gap. A new Jetta (Bora) TDI is a 1.9 liter turbo that produces 100 hp, and a claimed 0-60 time of 11.7 seconds. In contrast, a turbo gas engine of roughly the same displacement (2.0 liter) in the same car produces 200 hp and 0-60 times of under 7 seconds. Yes, the diesel motor will deliver better fuel economy, but a modern car that needs 12 seconds to hit 60 is not going to be a big hit in America.
Here's an anecdote -- near my home, there is a name-brand station selling diesel consistently at about a $0.30 per gallon premium above the price of regular unleaded. And mind you, that's one of the few stations that actually bothers to sell it at all, so driving in past in search of another wouldn't be much of an option around here. I'd guess that for every ten service station, you'd find perhaps one or two among them selling diesel.
In any case, the ultimate problem is the performance gap. A new Jetta (Bora) TDI is a 1.9 liter turbo that produces 100 hp, and a claimed 0-60 time of 11.7 seconds. In contrast, a turbo gas engine of roughly the same displacement (2.0 liter) in the same car produces 200 hp and 0-60 times of under 7 seconds. Yes, the diesel motor will deliver better fuel economy, but a modern car that needs 12 seconds to hit 60 is not going to be a big hit in America.
30 cents a gallon does not offset the economy benefits of diesel. Your comments re power are valid but not related to the question of cost!
And just FYI - its called the Jetta again in Europe now!!
#165
Bloody Yank
Joined: Oct 2005
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Re: Buying a used car ...
Originally Posted by Big D
30 cents a gallon does not offset the economy benefits of diesel. Your comments re power are valid but not related to the question of cost!
And just FYI - its called the Jetta again in Europe now!!
And just FYI - its called the Jetta again in Europe now!!
I didn't realize that they had rechristened the Bora as a Jetta. I would have thought that selling to English-speakers any car with "bore" as its first syllable was never a good idea, but I digress.