Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago
Jul 28th 2005, 10:12 pm
#16
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Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago
Originally Posted by AmerLisa
I appreciate what you say. I'm not saying that the officers involved should be criminally punished. I understand their heightened stress, etc. However, I do believe that whatever criteria they have to narrow down their suspicions need to be strictly reviewed, for everyone's safety.
Jul 28th 2005, 10:41 pm
#17
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Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago
Originally Posted by Franklin
I agree with that. Just added this to my original post: But yes, the rules should be revisited, and alternative non-lethal weapons deployed so that officers have recourse beyond using lethal fire power but such weapons must have instant knock out capability to stop the suspect bomber setting off a bomb hidden from view but operatively attached to their person.
If President Bush couldn't read a one-page memo, do you think the Met squad can digest THAT?
Jul 28th 2005, 10:55 pm
#18
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Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago
Originally Posted by snowbunny
If President Bush couldn't read a one-page memo, do you think the Met squad can digest THAT?
Jul 28th 2005, 10:56 pm
#19
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Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago
Originally Posted by snowbunny
If President Bush couldn't read a one-page memo, do you think the Met squad can digest THAT?
Hillary could! But then again she wouldn't appeal to the heartlands, she murders defenceless babies and eats their livers for breakfast, and, anyway, she has nothing to do with the Met.
Jul 28th 2005, 11:09 pm
#20
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Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago
Originally Posted by snowbunny
If President Bush couldn't read a one-page memo, do you think the Met squad can digest THAT?
Jul 28th 2005, 11:12 pm
#21
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Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago
Originally Posted by fatbrit
Hillary could! But then again she wouldn't appeal to the heartlands, she murders defenceless babies and eats their livers for breakfast, and, anyway, she has nothing to do with the Met.
Last edited by Franklin; Jul 28th 2005 at 11:19 pm. Reason: Shortened post ... removed "is" ... whatever "is' means ... *LOL*
Jul 28th 2005, 11:17 pm
#22
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Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago
Originally Posted by AmerLisa
You're assuming that everyone has the limited mental capacity as our esteemed commander-in-chief.
so let's say they are willing to try.
Hell, they would be spending hours reading....
Jul 28th 2005, 11:33 pm
#23
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Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago
Originally Posted by snowbunny
Okay....
so let's say they are willing to try.
Hell, they would be spending hours reading....
so let's say they are willing to try.
Hell, they would be spending hours reading....
Jul 28th 2005, 11:42 pm
#24
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Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago
Originally Posted by AmerLisa
Better to just go out shooting, willy nilly.
Jul 28th 2005, 11:51 pm
#25
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Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago
Originally Posted by snowbunny
Well, if you asked the public if they should read inordinately complex legalese all day, or go shooting all day....
Jul 29th 2005, 2:23 am
#26
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Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago
They have changed the guidelines before in how to deal with suspected suicide bombers and that it's a single gunshot through the mouth that snaps the spinal cord and instantly kills a suspected suicide bomber.
The guidelines also call for up to four more shots five in total and all to the head to immediately immobilize a suspected suicide bomber.
The rationale for this seemingly brutal approach is simple, a twitching, barely alive suicide bomber is still capable of detonating an explosion in the remaining moments of his life even if he has a body full of bullets.
This approach differs greatly from the shooting policies of most western police forces, most of which follow the "double tap" doctrine two shots in rapid succession to the core of the body of a suspect to kill him, and minimize missing the target and hitting an innocent bystander.
The British have learned lessons from Israeli police, who know that it's useless to fire a bullet into the chest of a suicide bomber who is wearing a vest packed full of explosives. There is no point in shooting anywhere else if they fall down and detonate it.
Apparently the Brazillian had lived in Sao Paulo being a dangerous city and he knew the rules there, if you run away when the police tell you to stop, then you are dead. Alledgely he knew that you didn't run from police and he spoke very good English. I say alledgely.
With the reports of the suicide bombers adopting the IRA approach of using nails in the bombs to do maximum damage to as many people as they can, would you want to risk using a taser or some other weapon that may still allow the bomber to set the bomb off? These officers are going to have to make decisions that may be wrong, to save maximum lives, have they got to consult a senior officer before they make a decision and then bang it's over and decision has been made by a bomb going off?
If you want to give sympathy go down to the morgue and see what a bomb does to a person, especially with nails in it.
The guidelines also call for up to four more shots five in total and all to the head to immediately immobilize a suspected suicide bomber.
The rationale for this seemingly brutal approach is simple, a twitching, barely alive suicide bomber is still capable of detonating an explosion in the remaining moments of his life even if he has a body full of bullets.
This approach differs greatly from the shooting policies of most western police forces, most of which follow the "double tap" doctrine two shots in rapid succession to the core of the body of a suspect to kill him, and minimize missing the target and hitting an innocent bystander.
The British have learned lessons from Israeli police, who know that it's useless to fire a bullet into the chest of a suicide bomber who is wearing a vest packed full of explosives. There is no point in shooting anywhere else if they fall down and detonate it.
Apparently the Brazillian had lived in Sao Paulo being a dangerous city and he knew the rules there, if you run away when the police tell you to stop, then you are dead. Alledgely he knew that you didn't run from police and he spoke very good English. I say alledgely.
With the reports of the suicide bombers adopting the IRA approach of using nails in the bombs to do maximum damage to as many people as they can, would you want to risk using a taser or some other weapon that may still allow the bomber to set the bomb off? These officers are going to have to make decisions that may be wrong, to save maximum lives, have they got to consult a senior officer before they make a decision and then bang it's over and decision has been made by a bomb going off?
If you want to give sympathy go down to the morgue and see what a bomb does to a person, especially with nails in it.
Originally Posted by Franklin
I firmly believe that as the controversy dies down, the family of Jean Charles de Menezes will receive a compensation offer. However, no meaningful discipline can be visited on the officer(s) involved because they operated within the current rules for dealing with suspect suicide bombers where members of the public are in close proximity, namely kill shots to the head. So long as the officer believed Jean Charles de Menezes presented a serious risk of being a suicide bomber and represented a clear and present danger to members of the public, the officer was obliged to unload his gun into Jean Charles de Menezes's head. This is the fog of war, innocents will die. It is both wrong and tragic, but an inevitable outcome given the present circumstances with uncaptured suicide bombers (or their functional equivalent) on the loose and able to access the Tube and other mass transit systems. The fact that Jean Charles de Menezes ran onto a mass transit apparatus with public in likely close attendance satisfied one criteria. Jean Charles de Menezes wearing a coat, coming out of a suspect house, refusing to obey an order to stop, running into the tube station, jumping over turnstiles, running onto a tube train carriage containing members of the public ... on what legal basis can the officer(s) be disciplined if their actions fell inside written down instructions for dealing with suspect suicide bombers, Jean Charles de Menezes was a suspect suicide bomber who refused police orders to stop and ran into a tube carriage containing members of the public, at that point the officer(s) were free to unload their weapons into the head of Jean Charles de Menezes, because that is what the written rules say: head shots to avoid setting off a bomb that might be wrapped around his waist or chest. But yes, the
rules should be revisited, and alternative non-lethal weapons deployed so that officers have recourse beyond using lethal fire power but such weapons must have instant knock out capability to stop the suspect bomber setting off a bomb hidden from view but operatively attached to their person.
rules should be revisited, and alternative non-lethal weapons deployed so that officers have recourse beyond using lethal fire power but such weapons must have instant knock out capability to stop the suspect bomber setting off a bomb hidden from view but operatively attached to their person.
Last edited by Mercedes; Jul 29th 2005 at 2:36 am.
Jul 29th 2005, 2:33 am
#27
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Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago
Here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4726485.stm Sir Ian Blair blasts the Birmingham police for using a taser gun on someone who might have been wearing a bomb.
"Despite everything that's been said here, there is only one way to stop someone who is a suicide bomber which is to kill that person," Sir Ian said.
"Anything else that happens - unless you can persuade them in an open space to undress - everything else allows the shot to go home but the bomb to go off."
"Despite everything that's been said here, there is only one way to stop someone who is a suicide bomber which is to kill that person," Sir Ian said.
"Anything else that happens - unless you can persuade them in an open space to undress - everything else allows the shot to go home but the bomb to go off."
Jul 29th 2005, 2:41 am
#28
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Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago
Originally Posted by anotherlimey
"Despite everything that's been said here, there is only one way to stop someone who is a suicide bomber which is to kill that person," Sir Ian said.
Jul 29th 2005, 2:46 am
#29
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Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago
Originally Posted by elfman
So they should have blown him away instead of taking him alive for vigourous questioning? Better to pick his brains in an interrogation than pick them up in a bucket after he's dead, surely.
Clever boys. They did raid the house at around 4am, how many people wear a bomb belt to bed?
Jul 29th 2005, 2:48 am
#30
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Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago
Originally Posted by elfman
So they should have blown him away instead of taking him alive for vigourous questioning? Better to pick his brains in an interrogation than pick them up in a bucket after he's dead, surely.