Birthright citizenship?
Jan 5th 2006, 4:20 pm
#61
Lapine Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Location: Austin, Texas in my own little world
Posts: 21,691
Re: Birthright citizenship?
Originally Posted by Boiler
I understood that the wording of the 14th was to make sure that the Black population were included as citizens, there was no intent to make those here illegally or visiting citizens, that was a Supreme Court interpretation and like any interpretation is up for dispute.
My father was over here a few years after my birth, it is always more pertinant to look at it from a personal situation.
If both parents had visited earlier and I had been born here, would I expect to be a USC because of that?
My personal answer is No, location an accident of birth.
The slaves were brought here by force and never granted these privileges.
As to your parents visiting earlier, etc. -- why should a baby born to parents in the US stand a good chance of living while a baby born to parents in Africa stand a good chance of dying before their first birthday? That certainly doesn't seem fair to me.
A baby's fate is largely determined by the actions of his/her parents before birth. After birth, a government can and should choose to give the child some basic rights and protections regardless of the parents' actions.
Jan 5th 2006, 4:25 pm
#62
Powder Maggot
Joined: Nov 2004
Location: Nuevo Mexico
Posts: 4,452
Re: Birthright citizenship?
Originally Posted by mdyoung
Everyone in the U.K. isn't trying to sneak in here.
There was a humorous idea floated around here that the Border Patrol should be staffed by illegals. That way, the only way they could keep their jobs would be to keep all the other illegals out.
Jan 5th 2006, 6:47 pm
#63
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Re: Birthright citizenship?
Originally Posted by snowbunny
All the 14th amendment did was ensure that the states couldn't deny former slaves rights based on their not being citizens and that states could in no way determine citizenship. Citizenship by birth for "free" or "white" persons existed from the time of the creation of the republic, and anyone who emigrated here by choice would've had the opportunity to go through a naturalisation process and pass citizenship on to future children.
The slaves were brought here by force and never granted these privileges.
As to your parents visiting earlier, etc. -- why should a baby born to parents in the US stand a good chance of living while a baby born to parents in Africa stand a good chance of dying before their first birthday? That certainly doesn't seem fair to me.
A baby's fate is largely determined by the actions of his/her parents before birth. After birth, a government can and should choose to give the child some basic rights and protections regardless of the parents' actions.
The slaves were brought here by force and never granted these privileges.
As to your parents visiting earlier, etc. -- why should a baby born to parents in the US stand a good chance of living while a baby born to parents in Africa stand a good chance of dying before their first birthday? That certainly doesn't seem fair to me.
A baby's fate is largely determined by the actions of his/her parents before birth. After birth, a government can and should choose to give the child some basic rights and protections regardless of the parents' actions.
Not sure what Africa has to do with it, they were living in Warwickshire if you need to know. I have no idea whether the US or UK offered better birth care at the time. It would seem unlikey that they would have been equal.
As far as the baby is concerned then of course the appropriate Government should provide basic rights. My point of view was that if I had been born in the US then those rights should be those provided by my parents Government - UK. I do not think it is correct that anybody should be co-opted into a foreign country through accident of birth locale.
Jan 5th 2006, 11:23 pm
#64
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 484
Re: Birthright citizenship?
Originally Posted by snowbunny
Where else in the world does a first-world country share a very, very long land border with a third-world country?
This is an issue unique to the US and Mexico.
And not *everyone* is trying to sneak in here. Many people have familial ties to Mexico and do not wish to leave. It is very dangerous to make the illegal crossing over the land border and exploitation of illegal aliens is huge. They come because if they don't come, they and their entire family could starve.
With the social bennies available in the UK, an unskilled/uneducated person would be insane to leave, as would most workers who could not make enough money in the US to begin to cover health care costs.
This is an issue unique to the US and Mexico.
And not *everyone* is trying to sneak in here. Many people have familial ties to Mexico and do not wish to leave. It is very dangerous to make the illegal crossing over the land border and exploitation of illegal aliens is huge. They come because if they don't come, they and their entire family could starve.
With the social bennies available in the UK, an unskilled/uneducated person would be insane to leave, as would most workers who could not make enough money in the US to begin to cover health care costs.
The US also shares a border with Canada....
Jan 6th 2006, 12:47 am
#65
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 14,578
Re: Birthright citizenship?
Originally Posted by mdyoung
That's why we build a nice big thick high wall.
Gosh that will be effective won't it.
Jan 6th 2006, 1:32 am
#66
Powder Maggot
Joined: Nov 2004
Location: Nuevo Mexico
Posts: 4,452
Re: Birthright citizenship?
Originally Posted by AlanR
The US also shares a border with Canada....
Jan 6th 2006, 1:51 am
#67
Maño-Americano
Joined: Apr 2003
Location: In the heart of the Ozarks
Posts: 10,216
Re: Birthright citizenship?
Originally Posted by AlanR
The US also shares a border with Canada....
Jan 6th 2006, 2:15 am
#68
WTF?
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Homeostasis
Posts: 79,437
Re: Birthright citizenship?
Originally Posted by mdyoung
Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying. I was that is there weren't so many illegal aliens being hired on there would be a greater need for people to come here legally to do the job.
There are millions here illegally that have just crossed the border and never have been here legally and continue to come. If we didn't watch the border everyone in Mexico would here. I'm sure the number of people that have overstayed their visa as an Au Pair is a couple hundred or maybe a thousand, so they aren't the problem. Everyone in the U.K. isn't trying to sneak in here.
There are millions here illegally that have just crossed the border and never have been here legally and continue to come. If we didn't watch the border everyone in Mexico would here. I'm sure the number of people that have overstayed their visa as an Au Pair is a couple hundred or maybe a thousand, so they aren't the problem. Everyone in the U.K. isn't trying to sneak in here.
As far as the illegal Mexicans taking the jobs away from the (apparently) more deserving European visa holders...... this is only possible because no matter how rich and white some American families are.... they'd still rather pay tax free slave wages to an illegal Mexican than a living wage to anybody else. Supply and demand. If there were no jobs here for the illegals, they wouldn't be coming over in such mass quantities. Start throwing doctors and lawyers in jail for hiring and harboring fugitives and things might change...... cut off the head and the body will die.
Jan 6th 2006, 2:35 am
#69
Back where I belong!
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Melbourne, Oz to Banbury, England to El Mirage, AZ & now back to England!
Posts: 5,989
Re: Birthright citizenship?
Originally Posted by Leslie66
I have no opposition to that.
Jan 6th 2006, 2:36 am
#70
Back where I belong!
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Melbourne, Oz to Banbury, England to El Mirage, AZ & now back to England!
Posts: 5,989
Re: Birthright citizenship?
Maybe people should start putting themselves in the positions of these people. You know for a fact that the grass is greener on the other side & your family is going through a rough time, I think a lot of people would chance it. Especially if you've heard stories that it's possible, it would then probably become your dream. We are all taught to follow our dreams, I don't see why they would be different. I'm sure they know it's 'wrong', but how far are you willing to go for your family? I'd go to the end of the world & back for mine, but hey, that's just me.
Jan 6th 2006, 2:38 am
#71
Back where I belong!
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Melbourne, Oz to Banbury, England to El Mirage, AZ & now back to England!
Posts: 5,989
Re: Birthright citizenship?
Originally Posted by JAJ
Citizenship by birth in Australia is automatic provided at least one parent is an Australian citizen or a permanent resident
If you were migrants (permanent residents) in Australia then the 1986 cut-off would not have mattered. However your mother doesn't necessarily have an automatic right to return to Australia if she did not take out Australian citizenship for herself while living there.
Your overseas born children should be eligible for Australian citizenship by descent, however this *must* be applied for through registration (it will be granted on application if the requirements are met).
Jeremy
If you were migrants (permanent residents) in Australia then the 1986 cut-off would not have mattered. However your mother doesn't necessarily have an automatic right to return to Australia if she did not take out Australian citizenship for herself while living there.
Your overseas born children should be eligible for Australian citizenship by descent, however this *must* be applied for through registration (it will be granted on application if the requirements are met).
Jeremy
Jan 6th 2006, 2:47 am
#72
WTF?
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Homeostasis
Posts: 79,437
Re: Birthright citizenship?
Originally Posted by Partystar
Maybe people should start putting themselves in the positions of these people. You know for a fact that the grass is greener on the other side & your family is going through a rough time, I think a lot of people would chance it. Especially if you've heard stories that it's possible, it would then probably become your dream. We are all taught to follow our dreams, I don't see why they would be different. I'm sure they know it's 'wrong', but how far are you willing to go for your family? I'd go to the end of the world & back for mine, but hey, that's just me.
Jan 6th 2006, 2:58 am
#73
Maño-Americano
Joined: Apr 2003
Location: In the heart of the Ozarks
Posts: 10,216
Re: Birthright citizenship?
Originally Posted by Leslie66
...... this is only possible because no matter how rich and white some American families are.... they'd still rather pay tax free slave wages to an illegal Mexican than a living wage to anybody else.
I have become quite predjudiced about Hiring Americans- most are f**king lazy bums who only want a paycheck. The Mexicans I have hired know what the term "Work Ethic" means.
My guess is that very few people actuall pay 'slave wages' as you think.
Jan 6th 2006, 3:05 am
#74
Back where I belong!
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Melbourne, Oz to Banbury, England to El Mirage, AZ & now back to England!
Posts: 5,989
Re: Birthright citizenship?
Originally Posted by Leslie66
I understood perfectly what you were saying. I was pointing out the irony that even the "preferred" immigrants are often times illegal.
As far as the illegal Mexicans taking the jobs away from the (apparently) more deserving European visa holders...... this is only possible because no matter how rich and white some American families are.... they'd still rather pay tax free slave wages to an illegal Mexican than a living wage to anybody else. Supply and demand. If there were no jobs here for the illegals, they wouldn't be coming over in such mass quantities. Start throwing doctors and lawyers in jail for hiring and harboring fugitives and things might change...... cut off the head and the body will die.
As far as the illegal Mexicans taking the jobs away from the (apparently) more deserving European visa holders...... this is only possible because no matter how rich and white some American families are.... they'd still rather pay tax free slave wages to an illegal Mexican than a living wage to anybody else. Supply and demand. If there were no jobs here for the illegals, they wouldn't be coming over in such mass quantities. Start throwing doctors and lawyers in jail for hiring and harboring fugitives and things might change...... cut off the head and the body will die.
Jan 6th 2006, 3:10 am
#75
Back where I belong!
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Melbourne, Oz to Banbury, England to El Mirage, AZ & now back to England!
Posts: 5,989
Re: Birthright citizenship?
Originally Posted by ironporer
Sorry to disagree, but I think that may be a rather simplistic view of the situation. I have had workers that I knew (or at least had a 99.999% suspicion) were not legal- and paid them better than half of my white or black workers. Why? Because they busted their ass, worked diligently all day long and did quality work. They also always came to work every day and on time. My neighbor here has a landscaping company and finds himself in the same situation...no "Americans" or other legals wanted his $11 an hour jobs enough to work hard and show up every day- so now he has 3 Mexicans rather thn 5 'legals".
I have become quite predjudiced about Hiring Americans- most are f**king lazy bums who only want a paycheck. The Mexicans I have hired know what the term "Work Ethic" means.
My guess is that very few people actuall pay 'slave wages' as you think.
I have become quite predjudiced about Hiring Americans- most are f**king lazy bums who only want a paycheck. The Mexicans I have hired know what the term "Work Ethic" means.
My guess is that very few people actuall pay 'slave wages' as you think.
But hey, we're all entitled to our own opinion.
