Best country to move to,OZ,UK,Ireland?
Mar 15th 2006, 8:54 pm
#16
Senior Moment
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,008
Re: Best country to move to,OZ,UK,Ireland?
Obvioulsy with the majority on here being British we might be a bit biased and tell you to go to Britain, but it is a great country, and I applaud you for wanting to get some life experience outside of the US. Seeing your home country objectively is achievable once you no longer live there and its a great persepctive to have.
I'd consider Spain, Madrid, Barcelona, I think the life there is just wonderful. But you'll need to keep quality of life over quantity as your mantra to truly enjoy living outside the USA.
I'd go for the UK, expect a culture shock. Constantly remind yourself that the USA is the richest country in the world, therefore everywhere outside of it is poorer and the people earn less, live in smaller houses and have less money to spend.
I lived near Manchester for 27 years before I emigrated to the States. Its rainy and can be a bit dreary weather-wise and has its violent areas like everywhere else but has a great atmosphere and survival spirit (it was bombed by the IRA in the 90's)
I would go for London though really to start with, but remember, unless you're on 100,000 grand a year, you're not going to live anywhere "american-size" Also dollars into pounds does not go far, so you might be able to work in the US via e-communication, but if your paycheck is in dollars it won't go far once you convert it into pounds.
Racism is everywhere, even if you haven't experienced any fromo Aussies doesn't mean its not there, same with every other country in the world. I do sincerely hope, that no matter where in the world you go, you'll be welcomed with open arms by all people.
One more question - do you have a EU Visa that will allow you to move oversea's?
I'd consider Spain, Madrid, Barcelona, I think the life there is just wonderful. But you'll need to keep quality of life over quantity as your mantra to truly enjoy living outside the USA.
I'd go for the UK, expect a culture shock. Constantly remind yourself that the USA is the richest country in the world, therefore everywhere outside of it is poorer and the people earn less, live in smaller houses and have less money to spend.
I lived near Manchester for 27 years before I emigrated to the States. Its rainy and can be a bit dreary weather-wise and has its violent areas like everywhere else but has a great atmosphere and survival spirit (it was bombed by the IRA in the 90's)
I would go for London though really to start with, but remember, unless you're on 100,000 grand a year, you're not going to live anywhere "american-size" Also dollars into pounds does not go far, so you might be able to work in the US via e-communication, but if your paycheck is in dollars it won't go far once you convert it into pounds.
Racism is everywhere, even if you haven't experienced any fromo Aussies doesn't mean its not there, same with every other country in the world. I do sincerely hope, that no matter where in the world you go, you'll be welcomed with open arms by all people.
One more question - do you have a EU Visa that will allow you to move oversea's?
Mar 15th 2006, 9:23 pm
#17
SuzieB
Joined: Feb 2006
Location: Sydney-ping-London-pong-Sydney
Posts: 98
Re: Best country to move to,OZ,UK,Ireland?
Originally Posted by Breezey
People of colour are as welcome in Ireland as a fart in a lift-the Irish are very new to multiculturalism and imho very xenophobic. Europe is fascinating-but you come over(well via one post) as an Australia kind of person.
And I agree-Australians are as un-racist as they come.
And I agree-Australians are as un-racist as they come.
Mar 16th 2006, 4:49 am
#18
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 234
Re: Best country to move to,OZ,UK,Ireland?
As a African American I don't think in terms of my ethnicity or wear it on my sleeve any more than any other ethnicity do, but when making such a major realigment, I must consider the attitudes of a society and how accepting they are of diversity. The Australians who I've made friendships with behave as if we were exactly of the same race. Now being a thinking person I'm aware that we are, the human race. But it impress me that they saw no difference and if anything saw it as more of a plus or attracted to me because of my ethnicity.What is your opinion on my perception?
I'm British from a partly Caribbean background and live in Australia. On an individual level Aussies take you as they find you and you will not find it hard to make friends. However it is a blatently racist society in the sense that they have no time for particular groups that are perceived as a social problem such as Aborigines, Lebanese, Vietnamese etc. Just be prepared to be surprised at the frankness of some comments you may overhear. They haven't heard of political correctness!
As an African American you probably won't get the same attitude because there aren't too many of us from an African background! I've had nothing but friendliness and warmth since arriving here 9 years ago.
I would think though that since you are in an exploratory mood that the UK might be better because of the proximity to Europe. It is so easy to take weekend packages to various cities. When lived in London we spent weekends in Istanbul, Rome etc - it was just so easy to do. The downside is the climate - it is so grey in winter.
Mar 17th 2006, 9:23 am
#19
Banned
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Posts: 316
Re: Best country to move to,OZ,UK,Ireland?
Originally Posted by kiwichild
Australia was founded on convict labour (though stealing a cabbage and a loaf of bread to feed your family is hardly criminal in my opinon) and racism, infact the sth african govt of the past got some of its policy ideas from australia.The australian founders considered aboriginals to be part of the flora and fauna.
I don't think that racism here extends to african-americans though. They tend to be seen in a more positive light. However that said there is certainly an element of underlying racism towards asians.
I hope one day we will learn to give everyone 'a fair go' and assess people by their actions and speech not some irrelevant matter like their ethnicity. There are bad apples in every bunch but also there are a lot of good ones too; they just don't get noticed as much.
I don't think that racism here extends to african-americans though. They tend to be seen in a more positive light. However that said there is certainly an element of underlying racism towards asians.
I hope one day we will learn to give everyone 'a fair go' and assess people by their actions and speech not some irrelevant matter like their ethnicity. There are bad apples in every bunch but also there are a lot of good ones too; they just don't get noticed as much.
I would imagine that an African-American would be interested in the here and the now-and In Oz anyone can be integrated and succesful.
Its intersting how those not of minority status have different ideas of what constitutes racism.
Yeh-they don't mind blacks in Ireland-or the UK-just don't plan on being
succesful.
In Australia, company directorates read like a who's who of the United Nations.
As one who works extensively in Ireland (and the UK)-I don't think I ever came across a non-white in a good job there-and funnily the UK is much the same-all this blather about how non-racist the UK is nonsense.
In Australia succesful people come in all colours-in the British Isles they come in one-with a few token exceptions.
Mar 17th 2006, 9:30 am
#20
Banned
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 316
Re: Best country to move to,OZ,UK,Ireland?
Originally Posted by Princess Leia
Hi there!
I'm British from a partly Caribbean background and live in Australia. On an individual level Aussies take you as they find you and you will not find it hard to make friends. However it is a blatently racist society in the sense that they have no time for particular groups that are perceived as a social problem such as Aborigines, Lebanese, Vietnamese etc. Just be prepared to be surprised at the frankness of some comments you may overhear. They haven't heard of political correctness!
As an African American you probably won't get the same attitude because there aren't too many of us from an African background! I've had nothing but friendliness and warmth since arriving here 9 years ago.
I would think though that since you are in an exploratory mood that the UK might be better because of the proximity to Europe. It is so easy to take weekend packages to various cities. When lived in London we spent weekends in Istanbul, Rome etc - it was just so easy to do. The downside is the climate - it is so grey in winter.
I'm British from a partly Caribbean background and live in Australia. On an individual level Aussies take you as they find you and you will not find it hard to make friends. However it is a blatently racist society in the sense that they have no time for particular groups that are perceived as a social problem such as Aborigines, Lebanese, Vietnamese etc. Just be prepared to be surprised at the frankness of some comments you may overhear. They haven't heard of political correctness!
As an African American you probably won't get the same attitude because there aren't too many of us from an African background! I've had nothing but friendliness and warmth since arriving here 9 years ago.
I would think though that since you are in an exploratory mood that the UK might be better because of the proximity to Europe. It is so easy to take weekend packages to various cities. When lived in London we spent weekends in Istanbul, Rome etc - it was just so easy to do. The downside is the climate - it is so grey in winter.
Australians ARE racist in the sense you noted-they dislike certain groups they percieve as "incompatible"-but they don't care what colour you are.
I would argue that in the UK they do-very much so. Although if one solely exists in a north London bubble you might not pick that up.
The guy that started this thread may not care what Aussies think of the Lebanese.
If you think the UK (or Europe) isnt racist-then you simply enjoy people patronising and politely keeping their thoughts to themselves-in Australia all they care about is the dosh in your pocket!
Last edited by Breezey; Mar 17th 2006 at 9:34 am.
Mar 17th 2006, 12:14 pm
#21
Thinking about it
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Mid-West
Posts: 9,435
Re: Best country to move to,OZ,UK,Ireland?
Originally Posted by Breezey
Yeh-they don't mind blacks in Ireland-or the UK-just don't plan on being
succesful.
In Australia, company directorates read like a who's who of the United Nations.
As one who works extensively in Ireland (and the UK)-I don't think I ever came across a non-white in a good job there-and funnily the UK is much the same-all this blather about how non-racist the UK is nonsense.
In Australia succesful people come in all colours-in the British Isles they come in one-with a few token exceptions.
succesful.
In Australia, company directorates read like a who's who of the United Nations.
As one who works extensively in Ireland (and the UK)-I don't think I ever came across a non-white in a good job there-and funnily the UK is much the same-all this blather about how non-racist the UK is nonsense.
In Australia succesful people come in all colours-in the British Isles they come in one-with a few token exceptions.
There are very few black people in Ireland which would cut down somewhat on their chances of being found in high-ranking business positions purely due to the numbers.
In addition the majority of the black/african population consists of recent immigrants/assylum seekers - not really the type of person who is going to find themself a job in the board room as soon as they step of the plane.
On the other hand there are many, many successful asian and oriental businessmen and women in Ireland because the asian and oriental communities are much more established than the african ones.
Come back in 20/30 years time when the kids of recent african immigrants are out in the workforce and tell us what you se then.
But really, you have to stop talking such nonsense - I recently moved from Ireland to the US and there is absolutely no doubt in my mind which country is more racist - the contest isn't even close
Your comments about the UK are also well wide of the mark - do you have some kind of chip on your shoulder or something ??
Mar 17th 2006, 12:16 pm
#22
Thinking about it
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Mid-West
Posts: 9,435
Re: Best country to move to,OZ,UK,Ireland?
Originally Posted by Breezey
Australians ARE racist in the sense you noted-they dislike certain groups they percieve as "incompatible"-but they don't care what colour you are.
Mar 17th 2006, 12:16 pm
#23
Banned
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 316
Re: Best country to move to,OZ,UK,Ireland?
Originally Posted by BigDavyG
Why do you insist on talking such b*ll*cks ???
There are very few black people in Ireland which would cut down somewhat on their chances of being found in high-ranking business positions purely due to the numbers.
In addition the majority of the black/african population consists of recent immigrants/assylum seekers - not really the type of person who is going to find themself a job in the board room as soon as they step of the plane.
On the other hand there are many, many successful asian and oriental businessmen and women in Ireland because the asian and oriental communities are much more established than the african ones.
Come back in 20/30 years time when the kids of recent african immigrants are out in the workforce and tell us what you se then.
But really, you have to stop talking such nonsense - I recently moved from Ireland to the US and there is absolutely no doubt in my mind which country is more racist - the contest isn't even close
Your comments about the UK are also well wide of the mark - do you have some kind of chip on your shoulder or something ??
There are very few black people in Ireland which would cut down somewhat on their chances of being found in high-ranking business positions purely due to the numbers.
In addition the majority of the black/african population consists of recent immigrants/assylum seekers - not really the type of person who is going to find themself a job in the board room as soon as they step of the plane.
On the other hand there are many, many successful asian and oriental businessmen and women in Ireland because the asian and oriental communities are much more established than the african ones.
Come back in 20/30 years time when the kids of recent african immigrants are out in the workforce and tell us what you se then.
But really, you have to stop talking such nonsense - I recently moved from Ireland to the US and there is absolutely no doubt in my mind which country is more racist - the contest isn't even close
Your comments about the UK are also well wide of the mark - do you have some kind of chip on your shoulder or something ??
Mar 17th 2006, 1:28 pm
#24
Thinking about it
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Mid-West
Posts: 9,435
Re: Best country to move to,OZ,UK,Ireland?
Originally Posted by Breezey
No-just a different opinion to you! As for oriental businessmen-no one doubted that the Irish might like the odd chinese meal.
Also you are entitled to your opinion, but you have stated it as a fact - that black people are actively or institutionally discriminated against in Ireland and the UK - this is utter b*ll*cks.
Saying that black people don't have good jobs in Ireland is a bit like saying black people don't have good jobs in Iceland - there's a bloody good and obvious reason for it - they aren't there in great numbers.
As for the UK - there are many black people in powerful positions and the reasons that there are maybe not more are a bit more complex that Brits simply not liking black people.
I hope your condescending attitude servers you well when you are over working in Ireland - I can tell you for certain that is something that the Irish definitely don't like.
Mar 17th 2006, 3:58 pm
#25
Banned
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 316
Re: Best country to move to,OZ,UK,Ireland?
Originally Posted by BigDavyG
You really are showing your ignorance now - that might have been the starting point for many an empire but rest assured that many have come a long way since their beginnings in a takeaway.
Also you are entitled to your opinion, but you have stated it as a fact - that black people are actively or institutionally discriminated against in Ireland and the UK - this is utter b*ll*cks.
Saying that black people don't have good jobs in Ireland is a bit like saying black people don't have good jobs in Iceland - there's a bloody good and obvious reason for it - they aren't there in great numbers.
As for the UK - there are many black people in powerful positions and the reasons that there are maybe not more are a bit more complex that Brits simply not liking black people.
I hope your condescending attitude servers you well when you are over working in Ireland - I can tell you for certain that is something that the Irish definitely don't like.
Also you are entitled to your opinion, but you have stated it as a fact - that black people are actively or institutionally discriminated against in Ireland and the UK - this is utter b*ll*cks.
Saying that black people don't have good jobs in Ireland is a bit like saying black people don't have good jobs in Iceland - there's a bloody good and obvious reason for it - they aren't there in great numbers.
As for the UK - there are many black people in powerful positions and the reasons that there are maybe not more are a bit more complex that Brits simply not liking black people.
I hope your condescending attitude servers you well when you are over working in Ireland - I can tell you for certain that is something that the Irish definitely don't like.
Mar 17th 2006, 4:40 pm
#26
Thinking about it
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Mid-West
Posts: 9,435
Re: Best country to move to,OZ,UK,Ireland?
Originally Posted by Breezey
I was speaking more specifically of Ireland-yet it is you that is the ignorant one.
Originally Posted by Breezey
As one who works extensively in Ireland (and the UK)-I don't think I ever came across a non-white in a good job there-and funnily the UK is much the same-all this blather about how non-racist the UK is nonsense.
Mar 18th 2006, 6:47 pm
#27
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: Orlando,Florida,living in Buckinghamshire for next 6 weeks.
Posts: 1,416
Re: Best country to move to,OZ,UK,Ireland?
Breezey
I'd be interested to read some of your personal interaction in Ireland with caucasions which could explain your perspective on ethnic relations in Ireland.If you would include your encounters in the UK as well it would be greatly appreciated. I think it important to listen to everyone and not dismiss their experience even if its different than my own. Its called keeping a open mind.How long did/do you work in Ireland and what particular events have taken place to bring you to the opinion that people of colour are treated with disrespect?
Thank you
People of colour are as welcome in Ireland as a fart in a lift-the Irish are very new to multiculturalism and imho very xenophobic. Europe is fascinating-but you come over(well via one post) as an Australia kind of person.
And I agree-Australians are as un-racist as they come.[/QUOTE]
I'd be interested to read some of your personal interaction in Ireland with caucasions which could explain your perspective on ethnic relations in Ireland.If you would include your encounters in the UK as well it would be greatly appreciated. I think it important to listen to everyone and not dismiss their experience even if its different than my own. Its called keeping a open mind.How long did/do you work in Ireland and what particular events have taken place to bring you to the opinion that people of colour are treated with disrespect?
Thank you
People of colour are as welcome in Ireland as a fart in a lift-the Irish are very new to multiculturalism and imho very xenophobic. Europe is fascinating-but you come over(well via one post) as an Australia kind of person.
And I agree-Australians are as un-racist as they come.[/QUOTE]
Mar 18th 2006, 7:37 pm
#28
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Location: Orlando,Florida,living in Buckinghamshire for next 6 weeks.
Posts: 1,416
Re: Best country to move to,OZ,UK,Ireland?
Princess Leia
Hi
Thank you 4 responding to my post. You seem to have a good grasp on how things work socially in Australia. All though short, the time with my Australian friends in MiamiBeach does mirror your opinion on ethnic relations in OZ. Not one time can I recall any bias against my self(just the opposite) during those 5 weeks we shared each others company. Over a few beers we did discuss many issues and race relations in Australia was among them.
There were racial under currents from them in our conversation directed toward those ethnic groups you mention in your post.Caught me by surprise, but I did not pursue the topic further because truthfully, it requires personal knowledge of what is taking place on the ground in Australia in order to debate such matters.I'm curious as to what city you call home in OZ? Suppose it would be a reasonable assumption to think that larger cities are more progressive in OZ?
Do you agree that there is a serious glass ceiling in the UK for minorities? Is ethnic diversity far more accepted in Australia in comparison to the UK?As a African Caribbean you are in a rare position to understand racism in the first person, and not have to assume what racism is like for minorities. Having said that I continue to respect all opinions and encourage debate from every ethnicity.
Thank you
Hi there!
I'm British from a partly Caribbean background and live in Australia. On an individual level Aussies take you as they find you and you will not find it hard to make friends. However it is a blatently racist society in the sense that they have no time for particular groups that are perceived as a social problem such as Aborigines, Lebanese, Vietnamese etc. Just be prepared to be surprised at the frankness of some comments you may overhear. They haven't heard of political correctness!
As an African American you probably won't get the same attitude because there aren't too many of us from an African background! I've had nothing but friendliness and warmth since arriving here 9 years ago.
I would think though that since you are in an exploratory mood that the UK might be better because of the proximity to Europe. It is so easy to take weekend packages to various cities. When lived in London we spent weekends in Istanbul, Rome etc - it was just so easy to do. The downside is the climate - it is so grey in winter.[/QUOTE]
Hi
Thank you 4 responding to my post. You seem to have a good grasp on how things work socially in Australia. All though short, the time with my Australian friends in MiamiBeach does mirror your opinion on ethnic relations in OZ. Not one time can I recall any bias against my self(just the opposite) during those 5 weeks we shared each others company. Over a few beers we did discuss many issues and race relations in Australia was among them.
There were racial under currents from them in our conversation directed toward those ethnic groups you mention in your post.Caught me by surprise, but I did not pursue the topic further because truthfully, it requires personal knowledge of what is taking place on the ground in Australia in order to debate such matters.I'm curious as to what city you call home in OZ? Suppose it would be a reasonable assumption to think that larger cities are more progressive in OZ?
Do you agree that there is a serious glass ceiling in the UK for minorities? Is ethnic diversity far more accepted in Australia in comparison to the UK?As a African Caribbean you are in a rare position to understand racism in the first person, and not have to assume what racism is like for minorities. Having said that I continue to respect all opinions and encourage debate from every ethnicity.
Thank you
Hi there!
I'm British from a partly Caribbean background and live in Australia. On an individual level Aussies take you as they find you and you will not find it hard to make friends. However it is a blatently racist society in the sense that they have no time for particular groups that are perceived as a social problem such as Aborigines, Lebanese, Vietnamese etc. Just be prepared to be surprised at the frankness of some comments you may overhear. They haven't heard of political correctness!
As an African American you probably won't get the same attitude because there aren't too many of us from an African background! I've had nothing but friendliness and warmth since arriving here 9 years ago.
I would think though that since you are in an exploratory mood that the UK might be better because of the proximity to Europe. It is so easy to take weekend packages to various cities. When lived in London we spent weekends in Istanbul, Rome etc - it was just so easy to do. The downside is the climate - it is so grey in winter.[/QUOTE]
Last edited by YankeemovingAbroad; Mar 18th 2006 at 7:40 pm.
Mar 19th 2006, 2:56 pm
#29
Fighting my corner
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 11,948
Re: Best country to move to,OZ,UK,Ireland?
Originally Posted by Breezey
Australia might have been founded on a lot of things and infact the words to its anthem were once-"for we are young and WHITE" (changed to "for we are young and free).
The line in question has never read "for we are young and white" - which would have been quite impossible anyway, since it is required to rhyme with "our home is girt by sea" two lines later.
Consider, for a moment, the implications if this myth was true:
Australians all, let us rejoice,
For we are young and white.
We've golden soil and wealth for toil,
Our home is girt by sea.
While it is true that the anthem has seen a few changes, none of these have any relevance to the issue of race.
Thus:
Verse 1, line 1:
Original: "Australia's sons, let us rejoice"
Revised: "Australians all, let us rejoice"
Verse 3, line 3:
Original: "To make our youthful Commonwealth"
Revised: "To make this Commonwealth of ours"
Verse 3, line 5:
Original: "For loyal sons beyond the seas"
Revised: For those who've come across the sea"
Mar 20th 2006, 4:04 am
#30
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2003
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 977
Re: Best country to move to,OZ,UK,Ireland?
Originally Posted by YankeemovingAbroad
Breezey
I'd be interested to read some of your personal interaction in Ireland with caucasions which could explain your perspective on ethnic relations in Ireland.If you would include your encounters in the UK as well it would be greatly appreciated. I think it important to listen to everyone and not dismiss their experience even if its different than my own. Its called keeping a open mind.How long did/do you work in Ireland and what particular events have taken place to bring you to the opinion that people of colour are treated with disrespect?
Thank you
People of colour are as welcome in Ireland as a fart in a lift-the Irish are very new to multiculturalism and imho very xenophobic. Europe is fascinating-but you come over(well via one post) as an Australia kind of person.
And I agree-Australians are as un-racist as they come.
I'd be interested to read some of your personal interaction in Ireland with caucasions which could explain your perspective on ethnic relations in Ireland.If you would include your encounters in the UK as well it would be greatly appreciated. I think it important to listen to everyone and not dismiss their experience even if its different than my own. Its called keeping a open mind.How long did/do you work in Ireland and what particular events have taken place to bring you to the opinion that people of colour are treated with disrespect?
Thank you
People of colour are as welcome in Ireland as a fart in a lift-the Irish are very new to multiculturalism and imho very xenophobic. Europe is fascinating-but you come over(well via one post) as an Australia kind of person.
And I agree-Australians are as un-racist as they come.
I lived in Ireland for about two years, this was 2001 to 2003. I cant really think of too much by way of specific incidents, but my perceptioin was that the Irish are not racist, but rather xenophobic. They are not used to immigrants, and there was no overtly racist incidents, but rather they were slightly weary of the implications of immigrants. I guess one could look at the fact that th e laws on who is an irish citizen was changed to exclude those born in ireland whose paretns were not irish citizens or in Ireland lawfully for a number of years. When this was being debated it was pretty clear the reasoning behind this was because of asylum (read black, sorry if this sound un PC) seekers coming to ieland heavily pregnant to give birth to new irish citizens.
However, the majority of Irish people are not racist, and as far a xenophobia goes it prbably applies to Polish workers too.
My experience of Oz is even more limited, but I think Oz can be more overtly intolerant of certain communities than they would like the outside world to believe. (Aboriginals and Lebanese in particular) The treatment of Aboriginals has been shocking, on par any day with South Africas apartheid treatment of blacks, a quick search on some of the government policies of the 50s and 60s will show that.
The intolerance of middle eastern communities (and perhaps asian as well) has more to do with the percepton that those communities are "un-australian" and do not want to integrate and embrace aussie values.
The flipside is that if you are willing to embrace the aussie way of life, you will most likely be very welcome.
Just my thoughts, happy to have them attacked if you think im full of it....