Cookie Monster

Hi all, been lurking about the boards for sometimes, always enjoy reading the posts! And now I have a question to throw out there:

My boyfriend (fiance someday ;-) ) is currently working on obtaining his HND in Computing. His ultimate goal is to obtain a BS/BSc(hon) degree in Computer Science and work in the US. We're hoping to have him arrive here on a K-1 visa and proceed from there.

And we're weighing the pros and cons of finishing his degree in the US vs. the UK.

One immediate difference is time-- it would take 2 additional years in the UK, 3 additional years in the US (because of the vastly different educational philosophies).
On the flip side, I wonder if it would be easier for him to obtain employment in the US if he got his degree from a nationally-accredited US university. Not only is there the advantage of the university's career center support and networking with local employers, but it stands to reason that a US employer might favor not having to figure out if his degree from a British university is a solid credential or not (he isn't exactly going to attend Oxbridge, after all).

I was just wondering what anyone else thought about this? Or if anyone had similar experiences one way or the other? Thanks!

AdobePinon

Hmmmm..... my feeling is, if....

1) He's sure he wants to work in the US,

2) He can pay for the degree (this is a biggie!)

... he'd be better off doing it in the US, and he should start working on the job contacts as soon as he gets here. Maybe even get part-time work alongside his studies.

Cookie Monster

Absolutely :-)

Finances will easily be covered, as well, and we hope to settle down not long after he gets here, so that he'll be eligible for resident tuition at a public university before long.

I suppose he could also do a relevant summer internship while pursuing his studies here-- that ought to be useful for building contacts, too. And he does plan to do part-time work while studying, for extra cash. I like your suggestion of finding work in the IT sector rather than just flipping burgers ;-)

Thanks!

NC Penguin

For starters, I'm not sure that having an HND in Computing would be helpful when applying for an undergraduate degree in the US. i.e. he may not gain any credits towards a degree so he'll have to study the four years.

Also, if he does apply to a US institution for a Bachelors, he'll be considered an international student which means he'll pay the most expensive tuition and fees. Does he have such money?

Lycanthrop

I can tell you, being a Brit and having gone through the US state college system to the BS level that:
1. The job placement departments in US colleges are good for entry level jobs only (with rare exception) but if he has no prior experience.....fair enough......they should be sufficient.
2. US employers are really hung up on degree quals and if he has a UK credential with little or no experience........not too sure of his chances, but do seek input from computer geeks.
3. The UK college degree is typically superior in quality, but US employers rarely know this......if he returns to the UK, what will a UK employer think of his US credentials?
4. Finally, after a few years, the degree just gets your resume a serious read.......they want experience.

Good luck.

Cookie Monster

This is something I have considered, as well, especially when reading that an HND is designated as a vocational rather than an academic qualification. However, external personal circumstances on both our ends preclude him from moving to the US for at least another year or two. So we figured, he might as well do something to further his education while still in the UK.

I've scrutinized his course module content and compared it to a typical undergraduate curriculum in computer science, and although the details are something that still need to be assessed by an admissions counselor, I feel fairly confident that most of the core courses will transfer. That's also why I'm allotting at least 3 years to finish his studies, those pesky GEs will take up quite a bit of time on their own!

That being said, do you happen to have any suggestions for alternative courses of action (while he's in the UK) besides pursuing the HND? There are many facets to the British higher education system that we're both unfamiliar with :-)

Since he needs at least 3 years of US study to finish his degree here, one thing I'd contemplated was for him to spend the first year here at a community college, where international or nonresident student fees aren't as high as at a university. I figured this would also increase his chances of being accepted at a university, if he's transferring credit from the UK *and* from a junior college.

And somewhere along the way throughout it, we hope to marry and establish his residency here that way.

No matter what the scenario, though, we will be able to fund his studies-- though being able to save as much as we can is a good thing :-)

Yup, he will be going into an entry level position straight after graduation, as his work experience thus far is not related to the IT industry at all.

This is the main thing I was worried about-- whether or not a US employer would acknowledge at least equivalence in qualification.

If this ever were to happen, it wouldn't be for a while, and as you mentioned in your last point, it'll ultimately be his experience that counts. And if there's one language that truly is universal around the world, it's programming ;-)

penguinsix

While I agree with most of this post, in technology I think a degree from a US institution would probably be more valuable (and superior, IMHO) then a UK degree, especially for working in the US. I suppose it really depends on what specific major he will pursue, but in the tech world I think there is definitely a favoritism toward American degrees over UK ones (fwiw, I went to U of Illinois which is a big engineering school and now work in tech on both sides of the Atlantic now).

Nothing personal, but I gather his options in the UK are not Cambridge or Oxford (oh, just noticed you said that). Absent those two options, he'll have a tougher time getting a job with a Computer Science degree from XYZ school in the UK than he would with a computer science degree from Purdue, Illinois, Georgia Tech, Cornell, RPI, Cal Tech, CMU, Texas A&M or (of course) Stanford or MIT, mainly because the employers in the US are much more familiar with those programs and what specialties are offered at each school. Ask an American to name the top 5 universities in the UK and 95% of them stop after Ox-bridge.

There are also very real cultural issues involved in the US tech world, with a splash of entrepreneurism and creativity often being a a major positive for finding a job here vs. rote technical skills (such as you would find in some practical computer education programs). If he is going to work here, studying here might be to his advantage in learning more about the environment before hand.

I would also seriously encourage him though to *seriously* read a lot of the posts on this site. The US is NOT like the UK in 1,000 ways that your boyfriend has YET TO THINK ABOUT. While you seem certain he wants to work in America, I think nearly every poster here with negative things to say about the US was (at one time) also certain they wanted to come here as well (and now count the days until they can return).

Lycanthrop

You must have mis-read.....In the US, a US degree is preferable. Most US employers dont know that a UK degree is different. Agreed.

It'd be interesting to know how a UK employer views a US degree as I'm about ready to do the reverse of the OP........

penguinsix

Oops, I must be blind tonight. That's twice I've messed up.

Anyway, as for your situation, I can give you our example. We just tried to hire four or five guys in London, some with Flash experience, some with Actionscript, and a C# guy. Our pickings were very very slim. We ended up looking at Ukranians, a Slovenian, and a couple of guys from the UK (who wanted *way* more than they were worth on the open market). We really didn't look at education (we didn't have that luxury). I can tell you if we had a US educated guy, we wouldn't have cared two wits about his education--if he had some experience we would have talked to him.

While I didn't have final say on the hires (they were by our London office) I can tell you the breakdown was probably 40% experience, 20% education, and 40% social skills (i.e. would he fit in). I think there are some other thread about the difference between US and UK hiring that might also talk about this.

Lycanthrop

Cheers, I'm not in computers tho.......just a dumb "Mechie"........looking to go back.......but thanks for the info anyways.

Tarkak9

Careful about that. All Unis have their procedures about qualifying for in-state tuition status and some have really clamped down on it. Many students would use it as a loop hole and obtain in-state tuition after a year or whatever the case may be. I would find out way ahead of time from the particular unis in mind so that you can make necessary planning. I wouldn't make assumptions... some unis will want proof that you are emancipated and may scrutinize how and where your fees are paid (even if its through a trust) and if their is a hint that you don't pay them then they still may categorize you as out-of-state status.... all part of the qualification process.

Another idea you could do is contact various companies etc which you may already have in mind about what would be more marketable - UK or US degree combined with various experience history etc. Years ago the ol' wisdom I was given was if possible do a UK undergrad and then US postgrad but times have changed per se, besides you are in a field which is saturated too so heavy emphasis may not be on origin of degree. No harm to "interview" the company as it creates long term contact and awareness between you and the company... just my $.02 worth!

Muswell Hill

I attended a UK and US University for degrees. IMHO opinion he should finish it in the UK. It will be a lot cheaper and quicker. He could have the degree "evaluated" by a company such a WES (wes.com) and in my experience that is as good as saying you went to a US uni for most employers.

RE tuition....in SC and NC (i'm sure other states too) you must be a resident there for 1 year on an immigrant visa to qualify for in state tuition. A fiancee visa/spouse visa qualify i believe for this, so really he would be lookign at waiting 1 year to qualify for the in state rates, then 3 years. Also remember that he would have to take loads of non computer related classes like english lit, music etc to get the US degree.

Best of luck though...i have done it and it is certainly not impossible,

anotherlimey

I think you mean wes.org right?

dukeynorton

Just finish it in the UK, simple as that. I think its too much of an ask...personally.

The obsession with Oxford and Cambrige is laughable at times. It is entirely dependent on the course of study, so dont listen to it. You have plenty of good options for a computer degree in the UK. Looking at this years THES top 20 for computer science, there is plenty of realistic choices for you guys there (Lancaster at number 16!). Try to go for a UK university that offers some form of placement so that maybe you could get a years worth or work experience at a big computer based company, that will really help with the job search in the US or UK. Or, better still, try and find one which will allow study/work abroad in the US. That is exactly what I did and it opened many doors and pretty much changed my life for the better.

I think that transferring to the US system will be difficult academically also. No disrespect to you or your bf (sorry fiancee ) but he will probably find that he is somewhat lacking in areas not related to his recent studies and which he will be required to take during "college" at a pretty advanced level. These include languages, maths, all sciences etc. This is a serious issue as far as i am concerned. Im not saying he cant do it, but he just needs to be prepared. I would also be concerned about getting in to a US college in the first place, as has already been mentioned in this post. They wont have a clue what an HND is. Perhaps A-levels is the way to go but this is a BIG investment.

Bob

HND, I wouldn't bother, it's not worth the paper it's written on, just go straight for the degree...the UK will be a lot cheaper, but the downside, would also have no kudos over here if it were a good uni.

At the end of the day, a degree is a degree, and they could easy get it checked over, but no experience will be the killer regardless because everyone has a degree over here, and you'd need experience to get a job.

The thing with doing the degree in the UK, HND could be used to help knock a year or two off the course, but it wouldn't be worth wiping his bum with over here.