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applying for kids UK passport ~ not registered yet

applying for kids UK passport ~ not registered yet

Old Sep 19th 2012, 3:43 pm
  #31  
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Default Re: applying for kids UK passport ~ not registered yet

Originally Posted by MarylandNed View Post
Look, we can agree to disagree. I'm entitled to my point of view just as you are entitled to yours. I'm also entitled to express it.

I made no mistakes with my "children." Two were born in Canada where consular birth registration isn't even an option (which is also true of other countries such as Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, South Africa). One was born in the UK (so no issue there either). ONE child was born in the US. I have enough birth certs for her, me and my wife stored in separate locations. She already has a UK passport. I see no need for consular birth registration - if I did I could still do it, so again, there is no "mistake". The UK government actually states on their web site that you don't need to do it:

http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-...tering-a-birth

I can see that some people might feel the need to do it for whatever reason (e.g. the US birth cert issued more than 3 months after birth). I just don't see those reasons applying to my daughter's situation.

I certainly don't have safety deposit boxes just for storing birth certs although that's a perfectly good reason for having one. I happen to already have a safety deposit box for other reasons so it costs me no more to throw a couple of birth certs in there for safekeeping. I have family members who also have safety deposit boxes so it costs nothing to throw a couple more birth certs in there too.

Don't put all your eggs in one basket by trusting the GRO. As I've said before, I've seen "secure" records go missing for various reasons. Nothing quite beats the ability to shove a physical document into someone's face and have them try to explain it away.
Method one: single payment required, no other actions necessary, stored permanently, child may request copy at any time.

Method two: multiple payments required over extended periods of time to secure, multiple actions necessary over lifetime of child to secure -- including, presumably, the time when you have passed away, loss is irretrievable.

You can certainly do both methods -- I have no problem with that. But if you're only going to do one method, FFS do the first one!
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Old Sep 19th 2012, 5:25 pm
  #32  
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Default Re: applying for kids UK passport ~ not registered yet

Originally Posted by fatbrit View Post
I have no problem with that. But if you're only going to do one method, FFS do the first one!


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Old Sep 19th 2012, 6:59 pm
  #33  
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Default Re: applying for kids UK passport ~ not registered yet

Originally Posted by fatbrit View Post
Method one: single payment required, no other actions necessary, stored permanently, child may request copy at any time.

Method two: multiple payments required over extended periods of time to secure, multiple actions necessary over lifetime of child to secure -- including, presumably, the time when you have passed away, loss is irretrievable.

You can certainly do both methods -- I have no problem with that. But if you're only going to do one method, FFS do the first one!
What multiple payments and actions are involved in obtaining a birth cert and storing it?
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Old Sep 19th 2012, 7:34 pm
  #34  
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Default Re: applying for kids UK passport ~ not registered yet

Originally Posted by MarylandNed View Post
What multiple payments and actions are involved in obtaining a birth cert and storing it?
Payment for a storage box, or indeed multiple storage boxes in your quoted example. And for the lifetime of the child, 78.2 years if they're an American. Okay, you already have one! Make sure you leave money in your will for your child to rent them as well. And train them on well-keeping since it's irreplaceable! Every time you move countries/cities, you need to change boxes. Every time you need the certificate for something, you risk losing an irreplaceable copy.

Compare and contrast with registering the birth: a single payment, certificate always easily replaceable at nominal cost, no action necessary at any time to preserve the record.

Just go and register your youngest child and get it over with. You made a bad mistake. Now you're doing a Romney by compounding it.
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Old Sep 20th 2012, 12:10 am
  #35  
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Default Re: applying for kids UK passport ~ not registered yet

The thing about these various approaches is that they all make sense if we lived in certain times where the past was a good guide to the future.

If I read the post correctly, I was mocked for asserting that we live in uncertain times wherein predicting the future very far out is risky. Even in the face of the fact that citizenship, residence and work permit rules have changed in major ways several times during my lifetime and there are people advocating still further changes goiong forward.

The thing about passports is - when the need for a passport asserts itself is it just as often urgent as not. The best time to apply for a passport is before you see a need for it, not when you actually do need it.
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Old Sep 20th 2012, 1:28 am
  #36  
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Default Re: applying for kids UK passport ~ not registered yet

Originally Posted by holly_1948 View Post
The thing about these various approaches is that they all make sense if we lived in certain times where the past was a good guide to the future.

If I read the post correctly, I was mocked for asserting that we live in uncertain times wherein predicting the future very far out is risky. Even in the face of the fact that citizenship, residence and work permit rules have changed in major ways several times during my lifetime and there are people advocating still further changes goiong forward.

The thing about passports is - when the need for a passport asserts itself is it just as often urgent as not. The best time to apply for a passport is before you see a need for it, not when you actually do need it
Agreed

Last edited by Mummy in the foothills; Sep 20th 2012 at 1:33 am.
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Old Sep 20th 2012, 2:36 am
  #37  
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Default Re: applying for kids UK passport ~ not registered yet

Originally Posted by holly_1948 View Post
The thing about these various approaches is that they all make sense if we lived in certain times where the past was a good guide to the future.

If I read the post correctly, I was mocked for asserting that we live in uncertain times wherein predicting the future very far out is risky. Even in the face of the fact that citizenship, residence and work permit rules have changed in major ways several times during my lifetime and there are people advocating still further changes goiong forward.

The thing about passports is - when the need for a passport asserts itself is it just as often urgent as not. The best time to apply for a passport is before you see a need for it, not when you actually do need it.
I think you probably lost the plot a long way back. Let me explain:-

The UK government provides two methods for documenting the UK citizenship of your US-born child: registration of birth and passport. (There is a third method described in this thread which ignores these methods and suggests you can do it by preserving irreplaceable documents yourself for the lifetime of the child. Obviously this is so stupid that it needn't be in the list.)

The best plan is obviously to use both. However, some families are strapped for cash and will only get the option of one should they wish to put food on the table that week. In this case, which one should you use?.
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Old Sep 20th 2012, 3:23 pm
  #38  
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Default Re: applying for kids UK passport ~ not registered yet

Originally Posted by fatbrit View Post
Payment for a storage box, or indeed multiple storage boxes in your quoted example. And for the lifetime of the child, 78.2 years if they're an American. Okay, you already have one! Make sure you leave money in your will for your child to rent them as well. And train them on well-keeping since it's irreplaceable! Every time you move countries/cities, you need to change boxes. Every time you need the certificate for something, you risk losing an irreplaceable copy.

Compare and contrast with registering the birth: a single payment, certificate always easily replaceable at nominal cost, no action necessary at any time to preserve the record.

Just go and register your youngest child and get it over with. You made a bad mistake. Now you're doing a Romney by compounding it.
This is not an "either or" situation. The point you seem to be completely missing is this...people routinely have copies of their real birth certs anyway REGARDLESS of whether they also do consular birth registration. You can't be seriously suggesting that doing consular birth registration negates the need to have and look after a physical US birth cert. At least I sincerely hope that's not what you're suggesting.
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Old Sep 20th 2012, 4:14 pm
  #39  
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Default Re: applying for kids UK passport ~ not registered yet

Originally Posted by MarylandNed View Post
This is not an "either or" situation. The point you seem to be completely missing is this...people routinely have copies of their real birth certs anyway REGARDLESS of whether they also do consular birth registration. You can't be seriously suggesting that doing consular birth registration negates the need to have and look after a physical US birth cert. At least I sincerely hope that's not what you're suggesting.
There are two ways of documenting UK citizenship for a child born in the USA: consular registration of birth and passport. If you're only going to do one of these, do the consular registration.

It really is that simple unless you suffer from cognitive dissonance.
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Old Sep 20th 2012, 4:34 pm
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Default Re: applying for kids UK passport ~ not registered yet

Originally Posted by fatbrit View Post
There are two ways of documenting UK citizenship for a child born in the USA: consular registration of birth and passport. If you're only going to do one of these, do the consular registration.

It really is that simple unless you suffer from cognitive dissonance.
Maybe you need to read and try to understand this because I give up:

http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-...tering-a-birth

"If your child is born outside the UK and is British, you can register the birth with the nearest consulate or with our consular department in London if you’ve returned to the UK. You don’t have to do this, but if you do your child will have a British style document and details of the birth will be held at the General Register Office in the UK. This is called Consular birth registration

The document we produce is not a UK birth certificate and should not be used as one. It does not take the place of the locally issued birth certificate.

Consular birth registrations also do not confer British nationality and are not required to register your child as a British citizen or needed before you can apply for a British passport. The reason is that British nationality is passed from parent to child and your child must have an automatic claim to British nationality at birth in order to make a registration."


"However there is no requirement for a consular birth registration to be done for any birth that has occurred overseas. The original birth certificate issued by the authorities in the country in which the birth took place, along with a certified translation into English, if appropriate, is sufficient for all purposes in the UK (including passport applications)."
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Old Sep 20th 2012, 4:40 pm
  #41  
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Default Re: applying for kids UK passport ~ not registered yet

And if you fail to do either, even though you can afford it, and instead rely on piss-poor logic, you're a sorry excuse for a parent.

And if you encourage others to follow your illogicality, you're contemptible.
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Old Sep 20th 2012, 5:52 pm
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Default Re: applying for kids UK passport ~ not registered yet

Originally Posted by fatbrit View Post
And if you fail to do either, even though you can afford it, and instead rely on piss-poor logic, you're a sorry excuse for a parent.

And if you encourage others to follow your illogicality, you're contemptible.
There's really no need for insults. You just lose credibility and respect when you resort to that. Not doing consular birth registration hardly makes me a "sorry excuse for a parent." There's much more to being a parent - and doing consular birth registration isn't even on the list.

You're just plain wrong if you think consular birth registration or holding a UK passport are the only 2 ways to document you're a UKC if you were born in the US.

Firstly, consular birth registration by itself achieves NOTHING in this regard. You can't obtain a UK passport just by doing consular birth registration. You also need a physical birth cert (either consular or one through the GRO).

Think about it - you actually have to DOCUMENT that you are a UKC before you can even do consular birth registration. How do you do this? You need your US birth cert and proof that you have a UKC parent who passed on UK citizenship to you by descent. So therefore this is the primary method for documenting UK citizenship.

Also, remember that consular birth registration is OPTIONAL and actually DISCOURAGED by the UK authorities (see web site link I gave you earlier). Since you are able to obtain a UK passport WITHOUT consular birth registration it, again, therefore follows that there must be another way to document that you're a UKC. Yes, again, a US birth cert and proof that you have a UKC parent who passed on UK citizenship to you by descent.
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Old Sep 20th 2012, 6:26 pm
  #43  
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Default Re: applying for kids UK passport ~ not registered yet

Originally Posted by MarylandNed View Post
There's really no need for insults. You just lose credibility and respect when you resort to that. Not doing consular birth registration hardly makes me a "sorry excuse for a parent." There's much more to being a parent - and doing consular birth registration isn't even on the list.

You're just plain wrong if you think consular birth registration or holding a UK passport are the only 2 ways to document you're a UKC if you were born in the US.

Firstly, consular birth registration by itself achieves NOTHING in this regard. You can't obtain a UK passport just by doing consular birth registration. You also need a physical birth cert (either consular or one through the GRO).

Think about it - you actually have to DOCUMENT that you are a UKC before you can even do consular birth registration. How do you do this? You need your US birth cert and proof that you have a UKC parent who passed on UK citizenship to you by descent. So therefore this is the primary method for documenting UK citizenship.

Also, remember that consular birth registration is OPTIONAL and actually DISCOURAGED by the UK authorities (see web site link I gave you earlier). Since you are able to obtain a UK passport WITHOUT consular birth registration it, again, therefore follows that there must be another way to document that you're a UKC. Yes, again, a US birth cert and proof that you have a UKC parent who passed on UK citizenship to you by descent.
Your argument misses the following:

* The UK authorities may not accept a US-issued birth certificate more than 3 months after the birth.
* It is impossible for most individuals to guarantee the security of a physical document over a lifetime, especially over the lifetime of another.
* A passport expires, a registration does not.
* An individual can lose a passport, but they cannot lose a registration.
* The UK authorities have already refused to accept an expired passport as evidence of citizenship and required the applicant to prove citizenship through other documents.
* The government does not always give good advice.

Last edited by fatbrit; Sep 20th 2012 at 6:47 pm.
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Old Sep 20th 2012, 6:41 pm
  #44  
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Default Re: applying for kids UK passport ~ not registered yet

I have a child, born in Canada, who moved to the UK as an adult. When she did I wished we'd got her a passport originally (we didn't because she had Canadian and Swiss ones and was named in my British one and that seemed like more than enough). She was able to obtain a British passport without legal issues but it took several months during which time she was obliged to stay working in Canada while her partner was in London. It would have saved a lot of bother to have applied when it wasn't time critical.
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Old Sep 20th 2012, 11:48 pm
  #45  
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Default Re: applying for kids UK passport ~ not registered yet

Originally Posted by MarylandNed View Post

Think about it - you actually have to DOCUMENT that you are a UKC before you can even do consular birth registration. How do you do this? You need your US birth cert and proof that you have a UKC parent who passed on UK citizenship to you by descent. So therefore this is the primary method for documenting UK citizenship.

Also, remember that consular birth registration is OPTIONAL and actually DISCOURAGED by the UK authorities (see web site link I gave you earlier). Since you are able to obtain a UK passport WITHOUT consular birth registration it, again, therefore follows that there must be another way to document that you're a UKC. Yes, again, a US birth cert and proof that you have a UKC parent who passed on UK citizenship to you by descent.
Couple of points...sure you need to show proof the person is a UKC, but once that is done for the registration, it's done.

The passport route needs to be established from scratch in the event the passport is lost/stolen or expired x number of time.

Registration is optional but only because most other countries do not alter a birth certificate in the event of an adoption and depending on how your state in the US issues a birth cert, it can mean the difference of then having to find hospital records showing when/where the person was born and their parents at the time if the US cert isn't accepted.

You didn't face any problems and that is great. That might not be the case for other people.

Being aware of and choosing which route to go based on full knowledge of the consequences and of the ability to afford doing what ever is a good thing.
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