lansbury

I'm sure I've asked this question before in the past but can't find it here on BE.

I had reason to call by annuity provider this morning, they wanted to check I was receiving payment OK and I suspect was still alive. At the end of the conversation I asked them the value of the annuity, and was told it had no value. It couldn't be cashed in and paid out until I died, I have no control over it.

Good as far as the 8938 is concerned as it means I'm well below the threshold, which was why I asked about its value. But is it reportable on FBAR. It is a financial account, over which I have no control and has no value, so does it go on FBAR or not..

Hotscot

'It is a financial account, over which I have no control and has no value'

I wouldn't. I agree with your reasoning. If the annuity went into a foreign account and went over $10,000 then I would report that. But I see that's not the case.

durham_lad

Beraider

I concur, an annuity with no cash value is not reportable.

MMcD

I've been filing F-Bars for mine.

You say you'll be using TT for first time Lansbury.

And I don't think you have any Annuities (yet ;-) )Hotscot....so just thought I'd let you know:

I've been using TT Deluxe ever since I converted my 3 Pension Funds to Annuities. And every year, as I go through the Turbo Tax procedure - it warns me that that I should not forget to file F-Bars (as form can't be accessed directly through them).

You may both be correct - but I'd be cautious about not doing it.

Hotscot

No issues MMcD.
My opinion is that if it doesn't reach the $10,000 threshold for the year then no need to FBAR.
Not employed as a tax professional though.

lansbury

lansbury

MMcD

Bureaucracy mandates consistency - don't upset the apple cart.

Now that I think about it - I'd do the same if I were you

Beraider

if the annuity has cash value it is reportable. No cash value not reportable. Same applies to life insurance policies.

celticgrid

Interesting mental exercise. Here (https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small...-accounts-fbar) they say:

I read that as saying that if the total of all foreign accounts exceeds $10,000 then all accounts are reportable. Therefore the zero value element is not relevant, rather the account is reportable on FBAR if it is part of a bigger picture. I'm not aware (but may be wrong) but nowhere in the FBAR instructions does it exempt zero balance accounts from the reporting.

And the first point talks about "a financial interest in". I'd say it is possible to have a financial interest in an account even if you have no authority over it.

However, for years I have not included occupational pensions on my FBAR as they have no value and I have no authority over it. It comes as a small surprise to see that "financial interest in" wording. Did it always state that?

Hotscot

'I read that as saying that if the total of all foreign accounts exceeds $10,000 then all accounts are reportable. Therefore the zero value element is not relevant'

Aren't you contradicting yourself? If it has zero value then it doesn't exceed $10,000. (And if there are no other accounts that in aggregate make the total exceed $10,000)
I accept that I may be misunderstanding your point.

durham_lad

The way I read his statement is that if you have account(s) that aggregate to more than $10,000 then you have to report all accounts including those with zero balance which would include pensions and annuities with no cash value and savings and bank accounts that you no longer use but are still open.

Hotscot

Awright...I see that.
Effin FBAR...

durham_lad

My sentiments exactly. We filled up some savings accounts in 2017 while transferring money to buy a house and emptied them before the end of the year. However I have not closed some of them so I guess that I will be reporting them again but with a balance of zero as we have other accounts adding up to over $10k.

I'm still on the fence about reporting my 2 pensions as I have no signatory authority over them and they have mo cash value. The ambiguity is enough for me not to suddenly start reporting them after 11 years.